Harbinger of Success, with Jordan Harbinger – Episode 94 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

Superstar podcaster and creator Jordan Harbinger touches on the toxic evolution of men without role models, the weird ways perception changes across groups, the difficulty of gauging progress in unquantifiable areas, and how charisma is a learnable skill, which can make you a better networker, increase confidence, and lead to deeper relationships.

About Jordan:

Jordan Harbinger is a Wall Street lawyer turned podcast interviewer with an approachable style and knack for securing high-profile guests. His podcast, The Jordan Harbinger Show, was selected as part of Apple’s “Best of 2018.”

Hailing from Michigan, Jordan was an inquisitive kid who was fascinated by the internet at an early age. He went to law school at the University of Michigan and landed a job on Wall Street as a corporate lawyer.

Jordan wasn’t interested in climbing the corporate ladder, but he was curious about a partner who was never in the office: Dave. Dave spent his days at charity events and playing racquetball. How did he keep his job? Dave told Jordan that he brought in business for the firm. To do this, he didn’t sit at his desk: he spent his time building and managing personal relationships. While hard work and intelligence were traits traditionally heralded as crucial for paving the way to success, Jordan felt like he was learning a “secret third path” that nobody ever talked about.

This kicked off an obsession with body language and non-verbal communication, persuasion, influence, social psychology, and networking. When Jordan started uploading what he learned to the web, he inadvertently became one of the first podcasters.

Today, The Jordan Harbinger Show has over 10 million downloads per month and features a wide array of guests like Kobe Bryant, Moby, Dennis Rodman, Tip “T.I.” Harris, Tony Hawk, Cesar Millan, Simon Sinek, Eric Schmidt, and Neil deGrasse Tyson, to name a few. Jordan continues to teach his skills, for free, at 6-Minute Networking. In addition to hosting The Jordan Harbinger Show, Jordan is a consultant for law enforcement, military, and security companies and is a member of the New York State Bar Association and the Northern California Chapter of the Society of Professional Journalists.

Learn more at JordanHarbinger.com.

The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

LISTEN:

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR RSS FEED: https://feeds.captivate.fm/the-action-catalyst/

SUBSCRIBE ELSEWHERE: https://the-action-catalyst.captivate.fm/listen

__________________________________________________________________________

(Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

Host
Jordan Harbinger has always had an affinity for social influence interpersonal dynamics and social engineering. He is the host of one of the most popular podcasts in the world. I’m excited to introduce him to you guys. So Jordan, thanks for being here.

Jordan Harbinger
Hey, thanks for having me on. And I appreciate it.

Host
Yeah. So what do you think are some of the key differences between ordinary guys and extraordinary men? Or how do you sort of draw that line?

Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, I mean, it’s definitely an interesting sort of distinction, right? Because there’s so many guys out there that don’t really know what either of those things mean, right. So you’ve got these weird camps and stuff we can get into later, where, you know, guys think they’re supposed to be one way, and they’re not the other and we’re not kids anymore, we can’t get away with the same type of stuff, we can’t ditch responsibility, you know, people aren’t really going to take the same level of forgiveness to the way that we carry ourselves, or the, you know, can’t be as selfish, there was just a lot of things that went into becoming more of a mature guy. And I also noticed that especially some of the guys that I just know, personally that I grew up with, they were just really not, not really interested in addressing that whole thing. So that I still have people that I grew up with were like, living with their parents, or they’re going to work every day, because they do have a job. But maybe they’re like, oh, you know, this isn’t what I’m really going to do later on, I’m going to do XYZ, and it’s just like all this ridiculous, kind of childish stuff, they don’t want to make the transition. And I’m not totally blaming laziness or society or anything like that, I think that just, there’s not a clear path anymore, which is both good and bad. You know, it’s good, because now we don’t have to work a nine to five, and we don’t have to grow up, get married and have kids, if you don’t want to, you don’t even have to live in the same country you grew up in, and you can work from home and all this cool stuff. But on the other hand, there’s no real clear transition, you know, back in the 60s, and earlier and, and, to a lesser extent, even in the 70s, and 80s, it was kind of like, this is what kids do. Okay, you’re 18, get a job, you know, graduated from high school, get a job, figure the rest out on your own. And that worked for a lot of people because they were thrown into the fryer. And my dad was one of those guys were graduated from high school. And at that point in Detroit, everybody was going getting a job in the auto industry. And that was what you did. And my dad went, I’m gonna go to college, because a lot of the bosses are, you know, college educated guys, and I want to be one of them. So you went to college, paid his own way, I helped his brothers and sisters go to college. And now it’s like, if you don’t go to college, and there was sort of a rite of passage in the in before our time that now no longer exists. So now it’s like, do I go to college? Do I not go to college? Do I get a job? Do I start a business, our ideas of what makes a man are completely skewed and screwed up? And there’s no real good role models to look at to figure out what to do? You can look at your own parents. But if they’re screwed up, you’re kind of out of luck. What are you going to do look at the NBA. I mean, you don’t have a whole lot of options.

Host
What do you think are some of like the misconceptions that guys have about what it takes to be a man?

Jordan Harbinger
Yeah, there’s tons of stuff like that out there. Because since this vacuum has happened, there’s this whole camp of guys that got started with like, maybe a few of these modern men’s movements, and some of them are really unhealthy. Like there’s this whole Pickup Artists movement, right? Where guys, like, here’s how you get chicks. Because somewhere along the line, we started measuring ourselves by that. And so guys went out and tried to master that which in a weird, self, destructive, misogynistic way. There’s these other camps that turned into like, No, we have to be really, really respectful. And we got to make sure everybody around us feel safe and loved, which is great. Don’t get me wrong. And the idea is great, but the execution is usually something along the lines of please everyone, but yourself. And eventually people will love you for that. And then of course, when that doesn’t happen, you get these angry people, pleaser, guys that are like really resentful of pretty much all of humanity. And then they turn into the next camp of guys. In fact, I’m almost going in an evolution here. Then they turn into the next camp of guys, which are these like, really weird men’s rights activists? Have you ever heard of this? It’s called like the men’s rights activist thing. And I’m sure that there’s probably some guys who are gonna yell at you and me about how I’m lumping everybody together, but I don’t care. But these guys, what they do is they they write things like, oh, you know, 10 rules for, and I’m not even I’m not even going to quote and I’m going to loosely paraphrase for your show. Because otherwise, it’s just too offensive. But I read an article that was very typical of one of these sites. And I read it recently because someone sent it to me, a female friend of mine, she’s like, is this real? And I was like, sadly, yes. And it was like 10 ways to make sure your relationship goes the way you want it to. And it’s things like isolate her from her family and friends make sure she knows her opinions don’t matter. Like don’t spend any time with her family or her friends unless you have to, you know, once a year on a holiday you can go to her house otherwise it’s all about you. You know, make sure she doesn’t have a career that it’s like misogyny one on one, but like created in a way that’s way too well thought out to be like a joke. It’s clearly like this guy has implemented This stuff and he’s advocating that other people do. And people write books about it. That stuff is creepy and weird. And when you say something like that, then you become on their like weirdo message boards, you become like this target. And there are people that are like, I know where he lives, we should wait outside his apartment and kick his ass because that’s what, that’s what alpha males do. And then there’s other guys that are like, No, you’ll get arrested, just screw up his credit by doing this. And it’s like, Are you kidding me, I have a different opinion than you. And since you’re a quote unquote, alpha male, you’re going to steal my identity, like get a life, but guys are doing this. And it’s a result of having no idea what real men actually do, what real responsibility looks like, what real, how you can actually be a strong guy and show vulnerability and love other people and take care of your brothers and sisters. And figuratively, or literally, it’s just like, oh, man, I grew up in this weird environment with bad parents. So an idea of what a man is is like a supervillain plus a Hollywood guy. You know, it’s just weird.

Host
So I want to turn the conversation now a little bit. You talk about charisma. So you actually think that charisma is is a learnable skill?

Jordan Harbinger
I don’t just think that it’s actually been proven by science. The only people who think charisma and personal skills are not learnable are people that either are well behind the curve, which is fine, I can understand that, but don’t really want to put in the work to do it. It would be like you ever have, do you have any friends that aren’t doing so well financially? And they say, well, it’s easy for you because this oh, well, I can’t do that. Because of this. You ever have any friends like that? Sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So the people who think Oh, charisma, personal skills network, and that’s not something you can learn. I wasn’t born with the gift of gab, the people who say that and quote unquote, truly believe it are the people who go, oh, man, that looks like a lot of work. I’d rather not highlight my shortcomings and simply blame it on whatever genetics the economy, circumstances beyond my control, you know, they’ll force majeure argument, right? And it’s very, very, it’s well established that this is a nurturer not necessarily nature type of thing. And I know, just from my personal observation, as well as as well as the science, I know that it is teachable, because that’s what we do. If this was snake oil, we would have been called out a long time ago, what a lot of people don’t really get their think like, oh, it’s all about saying the right thing, and you got to be quick on your feet. And maybe there’s something to that. But mostly, what it comes down to is a few parts nonverbal communication, both reading and displaying, and then the ability and willingness, frankly, to give pretty much unendingly to others without the expectation of getting something in return. So we teach a lot of nonverbal communication skills and I can give you a drill towards the end of the show that people listening can just try so we teach a lot of nonverbal communication. In other words, like looking acting, feeling confident, the the kind of like fake it till you make it but for real, you know, science based, nonverbal communication, how you’re perceived, how others perceive you. And of course, when you change your nonverbal communication, to be more confident, more positive, more charismatic, people start to treat you differently. And that creates really good feedback loops where you think, okay, now maybe I am that person, or how come everybody’s being nice to me today. And you’ve experienced this as well, I’m sure where you’re having a good day, you’re in a good mood, and then suddenly, other people are treating you really well. And you’re like, Well, today’s a really good day, that’s not an accident. It’s a result of the way that you’re being as well. It doesn’t mean that people won’t be snotty and rude to you. If you’re in a good mood. It just means that chances are, if you’re in a great mood, and you’re engaging other people all the time, and they’re reading positivity, friendliness, openness from you, and the way that they do that is nonverbally, they’re probably going to treat you differently than they are going to treat the guy who looks grumpy, stressed, and like he’s just over it.

Host
How do you go about doing that? Like, how do I start the journey of becoming confident if I don’t feel that way?

Jordan Harbinger
That’s a great question. Especially because, you know, a lot of people go well, what causes this in the first place, and I don’t want to zoom out too far. Because I’m not a psychologist. I’ll just blanket statements a parents upbringing environment, that can ruin us, just as it can make us. You know, the kids who were really fun, popular and great and well adjusted in school, they had a different environment than the kid who never said anything and had some trouble going on at home. Right? We all that’s like a cliche, it’s so obvious now. Now we look at the way that people are the way that people behave. And as adults, we carry 99% of the crap we had in childhood, we can slowly start to outgrow it. And we can slowly start to become confident, but it doesn’t mean all that stuff goes away. It has to be a manual process. Just like if you’re 100 pounds overweight. You don’t just gradually Oh, you know what I just randomly got in shape. No, it’s you had to change your habits, right? You had to change the way you eat. You have to change the way you exercise. And usually you have to change the way that you think about yourself. Because if you and I grew up together, and you were fat when we were kids, and this is hypothetical, I have no idea whether or not you were fat or not. I Let’s say that you were like 100 pounds overweight, you were always a fat kid. And we went to college in different places, and I haven’t seen you, and then we have our high school reunion. And you’re thin, right? I know, you’ve made a change. And it’s dramatic. And everyone that knows, you knows that you’ve made a change. Now, if I was always the shy kid, and you know, all the way through middle school, high school, and then I go to college, and we have our high school reunion, what would it take for you to notice that I’m less shy? And how would you measure that? You wouldn’t really, I mean, you might notice, because maybe I’m a little bit more outgoing than I was, but you and I were friends. So I wasn’t really shy with you. I was more shy with, you know, women or other strangers, but you wouldn’t really notice that because the way I interact with you hasn’t changed all that much. And there’s no gradient that you can say, Well, Jordan was, you know, he used to be really shy. And now he’s what less shy I mean, those are the most descriptive terms that you can really give that type of change. It’s another thing, if you look at people who knew me growing up, and they go, Wow, you’re like a totally different person, because my change is really drastic. So when you look at somebody who’s has a physical change, that’s dramatic, you go, wow, you know, what, you really did something, what was it and they have a strategy that was backed by science, that looks like it probably was the reason why they’ve changed the way that they appear. If I have science based strategies that change the way that I behave, there’s a 90% chance that most of the people that I interact with will not even really notice that much. Because they’re wrapped up in their own stuff. Now, someone’s appearance is so basic, that you always notice the difference. That’s why you’ll see somebody that you’ve known for years, and you’ll go, did you get a haircut or something? But you would never go? Amen. Did you um, did you suddenly talk to three strangers that you never would have talked to this morning, you’d never, you know, you never will have that. So it’s in part, its measurement, or lack of ability to measure. And to it has to be such a dramatic change for most people to notice other than you, right? Because your first impressions are already kind of made. That’s why it’s even more dramatic to notice that somebody has lost weight, or gained it, versus somebody who you know, changing their personality, because that image is already there. If you meet a bunch of new people, after you make dramatic changes to your personality, they see you in a completely different way. That’s why I go by my middle name now, which is Jordan, and people who I grew up with are used to calling me let’s say, Eric, right? So people who I’m young when I was younger, they go man, you you don’t look like a Jordan. I can’t call you, Jordan. And people that I meet now go, oh, man, I can’t call you Eric. There’s no way I could call you, Eric. I don’t look like a Jordan or not look like an Eric. That’s ridiculous, right? The only thing is their perception of me their initial one is what’s burned into their brain. And so now the new one doesn’t quite jive with what they imagined me to be. And that’s why it’s so hard to notice. If somebody’s made dramatic changes. It’s not that it’s not science based. It’s not that this can’t be done. It’s just that we don’t have good measurements for it other than subjective perception.

Host
Yeah. So you mentioned that word perception. Is the biggest part of perception, the way that we perceive ourselves first, and then charisma or confidence become sort of the outward display of the perception of ourselves. Would you agree with that?

Jordan Harbinger
Oh, man, that’s brilliant. Yeah. And in fact, I couldn’t have said it better myself. Because the thing is, you can’t be or it’s very difficult to be outwardly charismatic. If you have a lot of trouble perceiving yourself as somebody who’s confident now you can act charismatic, don’t get me wrong. So everyone right now is like no, but that one guy, right? No, you can act charismatic. Look at a lot of me, you see these actors that have like these crazy substance abuse problems and stuff, when they’re acting, they’re phenomenal. But they’re acting, it’s an art, right? You can try to do that as much as you want. But the whole point of this exercise is for you to become happier and more fulfilled, and create better relationships not to make other people think that you’re cool. That’s that’s the unhealthy stuff that we were just talking about in the beginning of the show. So we all probably met those kids, or even adults where you think, man, you know, this kid’s so cool. He’s tall. He’s athletic. Oh, the girl was like, Man, I wish I was him. And then you know, you have that one drunken and like, cool, intimate conversation with the guy and you find out that he like, hates his parents, and he feels like he’s stupid. And the only thing he has is athletics, but he’s not good enough to get into college. So he’s like really insecure about his future and you’re like, holy crap, this guy has real problems. What I didn’t know that. You know, the whole time. You’re wishing you’re wishing you’re him and he’s thinking what am I going to do after this? Right? He’s the most insecure guy you’ve ever met. And the reason that you thought that is because you went well, I’m below him on this ladder and on this measurement, I’m less and on that other measurement. I’m last and he’s definitely beat got me beat here, here and here. You know, you this is all a matter of self perception, just as his shortcomings are also a matter of self perception.

Host
What is your definition of charm?

Jordan Harbinger
You know, it’s really tough. Let people ask me that all the time. But it really comes down to a lot of different things. I mean, there’s this cutesy definition where it’s like, getting the answer without having to ask the question, you know, that’s all fine and good. But it depends on a lot of such I know, this is a worst answer ever. But it depends on the situation, right? You know, if you’re looking at at this from like, the confidence and charisma angle that we’ve just been discussing, it’s literally to be so confident in yourself that you’re comfortable being authentic, which means you’re comfortable being vulnerable, because here’s going back to the beginning of this conversation, a lot of guys go, Yeah, I’m confident I could like beat up anybody who disrespects me. Well, that’s not really confidence, right? Because clearly, you’re not going to beat up anyone who disrespects you, you’re tough guy, you’re just really hurting and really insecure. So you act like that, right. And you see these truly confident guys that you’ve rarely meet. And they’re really honest about what they’re afraid of. And then they’re the ones who are really close with their mothers and fathers and wives and girlfriends and kids, because they can be vulnerable, they can come back after a hard day of at work, and they can be the spaghetti Flying Spaghetti Monster or whatever to their kid and they can, they can take care of the emotional needs of their family. That type of thing. That’s extremely, that takes a lot of development, right? And it takes a lot of confidence to be able to go you know what, I’m going to quit this job that I don’t like and start a business. They’re confident enough to admit when they’re wrong, they’re confident enough to continue learning through life without having to prove to other people that they already know everything. So it’s more like a savoir faire type of thing that’s evolved into really the type of savoir faire itself, where it doesn’t matter what other people’s perceptions might be. We may teach you to read those and others we may teach you to display them well to others. But really, it’s about you, you know, it’s about how you feel how comfortable are you in your own skin because there’s nothing more attractive than somebody who’s got that nailed.

Host
Mm hmm. Well, I appreciate it, brother. You’re doing a good thing.

Jordan Harbinger
Appreciate it, man. Thank you.