Mind Shift, with Mike Lee – Episode 444 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

Mike Lee, founder of MindShift Labs, talks about making up his own minor, not getting out of bed for Kobe Bryant, why everything we want exists in the present moment, being pushed by pain or pulled by vision, the advantage of diversifying the portfolio of your identity and self-worth, the virtues of detachment and nonjudgement, why everything is driven from getting crystal clear on vision and purpose, and putting the mission over the medium.

About Mike:

In a world of disruption, change, and adversity Mike Lee helps individual contributors, leaders and organizations activate the purpose-driven, future-focused, and heart-centered skills that drive engagement, win the war for talent, and create cultures of belonging. He’s blended a diverse background of mindset, mindfulness, and high-performance to create a counter-cultural approach to the future of leadership.

Mike’s engaging, inspiring, and interactive programs at F500 companies and professional associations like Morgan Stanley, AmFam, Cisco, SHRM and IBM have earned rave reviews from bold and driven leaders. He’s delivered this approach through keynotes in packed ballrooms of a thousand and workshops with 10-person senior leadership teams. Mike has been described as “the easiest and most conscientious speaker I’ve worked with”, “the perfect choice to kick off our event” and having “an impeccable ability to tell a story”.

For 15 years he worked with some of basketball’s elite earning testimonials from NBA players such as MVP Steph Curry. Through his experience building an international basketball brand from his college apartment, and growing it while battling anxiety and depression, Mike understands the challenges leaders face in this volatile, uncertain, and complex world. His unique combination of personal adversity and basketball background gives him the ability to connect in a vulnerable and authentic way with a diverse range of audiences from the stage.

Drawing on the latest research from neuroscience, sports psychology, and personal experience, he’s shared stories and practical exercises — across the world — to help people find their own inner power and poise to thrive in business and life. His latest book, The New Rules For The Future of Leadership, has been endorsed by the likes of Neiman Marcus Chief People and Belonging Officer, New York Times best selling authors, and other Fortune 500 leaders.

Learn more at MindShiftLabs.com.

The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

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(Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

Adam Outland
Welcome back Action Catalyst listeners. Today’s guest has a tremendous background in both psychology and sports, having spent time on the court with elite NBA stars such as Steph Curry, and he’s blended that experience with neuroscience and practical exercises to help leaders face challenges for navigating the pandemic to employee retention, company culture and more. He’s also a sought after speaker and founder of Mind Shift Labs. And his name is Mike Lee. Thank you for making the time for this, Mike. Where are you Zooming in from?

Mike Lee
LA.

Adam Outland
Originally from Wisconsin?

Mike Lee
I am originally from Wisconsin. Yeah, right in the middle of state the middle of absolutely nowhere growing up, you had to drive I don’t know back then the roads weren’t the same. So we had to go is a good three and a half, maybe four hours depending on you know, visit my grandma or parents driving along to get to Milwaukee or Minneapolis. So how do you What’s your connection to this?

Adam Outland
The nutshell version? When I was in college at University of Maryland, I sold educational books door to door.

Mike Lee
So did my buddy. What was it? The company?

Adam Outland
Southwestern.

Mike Lee
Yeah. Oh, is this the same? Same organization? No way. No way. So yeah, one of my buddies did the same thing. So you’re familiar with the small town Wisconsin.

Adam Outland
Oh, yeah.

Mike Lee
I mean, that’s where I grew up.

Adam Outland
Summer sausage and cheese curds. Man. It was great.

Mike Lee
It’s great when you’re that age. Today, it takes a toll.

Adam Outland
You’ve got to connect the middle of nowhere Wisconsin, and you studied a concentration in basketball entrepreneurship.

Mike Lee
You went deep into my bio. Where did you… I don’t even know where that’s listed anymore.

Adam Outland
Zach’s like a ninja at pulling information up.

Mike Lee
Yeah, I can talk about that a little bit. Yeah, for sure. I’m talking about that a long time. But yeah, I think it’s a great lesson. Actually. Honestly, there’s some there’s a good lesson out of it. So probably like my junior year in college, I realized that I was never going to get a job. It started my basketball camp, my summer basketball camp. We started with one camp small town to Wisconsin, like we’ve been talking about. It kept growing. And we we had 100 kids show up the first year town at 15,000 people. The second year was we had over 200 kids. Third year was 300 kids and I just I knew I wasn’t gonna get a job. So my advisor was just very aware of what I was going to where it comes from. When you have a degree in psychology. At the school, you also have to have a minor or a concentration. And so what he’d let me do because he was I think he was in charge of the department was he let me essentially create my own minor. And he let me create it in basketball, entrepreneurship, and I picked all these different classes that would help me in this career that I was creating kind of Otter nothing I mean, now today, you can pick up a rock and throw it you’ll hit a basketball trainer that’s that’s working with kids back then you nobody’s really, really doing it like we were doing it. And so he saw that and realize that T should prepare me for real life not going to, you know, get in a job and working somewhere. And so that’s kind of where that came from, yeah he was awesome.

Adam Outland
Yes. Graduating from what I know around ’06, but in ’05, you also founded the Wisconsin playmakers basketball club.

Mike Lee
Yeah, so in 2003, a buddy of mine, and he were talking and like I was talking about earlier, I grew up in a town in middle of nowhere, right. And we wanted we just wanted to run a basketball camp. And we got a gym, got some coaches together. I printed flyers on my I designed a flyer in Microsoft Word on my mom’s computer, printed it out. We just took it around town everywhere we set it out the high school coaches, you know, I’m dating myself, but we you know, we mailed it. You know, the first year was our kids second years to our kids. Bam, by the third year, we had 300 Kids and at the time, I actually thought I want to coach college basketball. And I realized that I wanted to coach college basketball, that my best avenue was not going and being a manager doing laundry, cleaning the floor at some division one school and trying to work my way up. My best way was to essentially create my own brand outside of the college basketball world, and then leverage that to get into coaching college basketball. I wanted to be in the gym. I wanted to work with kids. I didn’t want to spend my time doing the managerial janitorial stuff with a you know, college basketball program. And that just kind of evolved. We started working with kids from Central northern Wisconsin where there were no programs there were you know, you had the drive, like I was talking about earlier to Minneapolis or Milwaukee to get access to these types of programs. And that’s so that’s We created this club for. And I just believe that these kids had an opportunity. Some of these kids with the right train the right work the right skills and resources that they can play at the same level. And that’s what happened. And we had kids that went out to play, NCAA Tournament get drafted in the NBA Draft two game winning shots in the NCAA Tournament. It just was a it just evolved. That’s something that I look back on. And that’s what we did, then, like, we just stay focused on the little things. And we just focus on them day after day after day after day, and trusted in the process.

Adam Outland
Do you feel like it was the reps doing some of that coaching with the kids that helped form some of what you deliver on stage and talk to people about? Talk to me a little bit about how you get from where you were doing that to what you share on stage today.

Mike Lee
There’s definitely some of that no question about it. Being involved in sports, since you know, eight, nine years old, you kind of the fish in the water. And you don’t realize you take for granted a lot of lessons you take for granted a lot of the mindsets and the things that the belief systems and things that you have to instill in yourself, and instill in the people that you’re working with the players that you’re working with, in order to be at an elite level. And I think I took that for granted. And so I definitely these are definitely things that translate to the business space to being a better leader to being a high performer. No question about it. But really, the the transition came when I you know, we had built this company in Milwaukee, and but I always dealt with depression my whole life. I used to get super, super depressed in the winters in Wisconsin, not getting out of bed till three or four o’clock in the afternoon. Global pressure. I mean, it was brutal. I mean, my my barometer was if I’m aching out of bed, and I imagined that somebody called me and said Kobe Bryant is at your facility right now and he wants to get a workout in. And that doesn’t excite you and you don’t want to get out of bed, then you’re definitely in a going through a depressive state. Yeah. And so it just got to a point where I decided that I cannot take another winter here, I just cannot take another winter in Wisconsin. And I picked up and I had moved out to LA purely for the weather. And I decided to get off an antidepressant medication that had been on for about 14 years. And getting off of it was one of the I shouldn’t say one of it was beat up this thing that I had ever gone through in my life. There are there’s board certified doctors at UCLA that are that are now comparing the withdrawal symptoms of some of these medications to getting off of heroin. Wow. And to get off of it, I decided to commit to a daily mindfulness meditation practice. And after a couple months of consistent practice, I realized why elite athletes like Kobe, white luminaries like Oprah and CEOs, like Steve Jobs all attributed some form of a meditation practice to their level of success. It gave me the ability to be present to be fully present in the moment. And I knew as a former athlete, and coach and everything that we want exists in the present moment, being in a state of flow exists in the present moment being in the zone exists in the present moment, the connection that you have to create with the people that you’re leading exists in the present moment. You want to show up with empathy that exists in the present moment, everything that we want, as a leader, as a high performer, as an entrepreneur, exists in the present moment. And so I realized that that at that point, I had a deeper purpose in life. And instead of building basketball players, it was the build people on to build leaders. And that’s one of the inflection points from where I’ve gone from basketball space to what I’m doing today.

Adam Outland
I love that story. Because it starts with self application, right? It’s like, oh, no other people need this resource. It starts with no, I needed it, right. And then as an extension of that I can equip others, but what gave you the belief? Not many people just go, Hey, I’m going to move out to LA with no network and just randomly start a whole new business that I feel really confident. Because there’s so much associated risk with the idea of relocating and building something from the ground up. Talk about that new idea a little bit more and getting Mind Shift Labs up and running.

Mike Lee
Well, there’s there’s a couple things, I think, yeah, I think Tony Robbins says we either we either change because we’re in so much pain, or because we have a compelling vision. We’re either pushed by pain or we’re pulled by a compelling vision. And as you know, I’m not even getting into the worst of the worst, but you know, when you are can’t get out of bed so three or four o’clock in the afternoon. Sometimes you’re pushed to make a decision, even if it doesn’t seem rational. Another inflection point was I will was going through this period of getting off of getting off a medication, there was the acute withdrawal symptoms for several months. And then there’s what’s called the post acute withdrawal symptoms, which are where these medications shut down your natural serotonin production. And so when you get off of them, your body is not producing any serotonin. So after I was completely off was actually worse, a good three and a half years, or I’m going with that as it is I was trying to make sense of all this. I knew given the withdrawal. So there was no way I was going back on something like that incredibly emotionally unstable. And so I was watching, I am not your guru at Tony Robbins, but I know he’s kind of a divisive person. Some people love them, some people hate them. But they asked, Why do you keep doing this? You have houses all across the world, you could have quit 10 years ago, why do you keep doing this? And he said, I have an insatiable desire or an insatiable desire to alleviate suffering for as many people as I possibly can in my lifetime. And I just started to cry like crazy, because I that gave my pain and suffering purpose, because I knew that everything that I was learning, the internal skills, the emotional resilience, the self awareness, all of these things, I was going to be able to I was building this massive toolkit that I’d be able to take and then teach to other people.

Adam Outland
That’s awesome. And it’s true. I mean, the it’s so difficult to give coaching and guidance to others, if you don’t have the empathy of having been there yourself. Right. And so some of the best coaches I know, are people that have had some of the darkest moments because they can go there, right with clients. So I totally appreciate that. So for the listeners on the podcast, I mean, you’ve worked with some really outstanding athletes. You know, Steph Curry is on your website, what are some of the things that have translated really well from from your personal experience, and it makes these things and when I say things, I guess what I’m asking for is, you know, what’s the strategy? What are some ideas you you share that have been effective?

Mike Lee
I’d love to share something with Steph because it’s something that I’m still working on today. It’s something that I learned from him just being or being able to be around him at his for skills academy that he ran, then being able to stay in touch though in bed, you know, go into pregame workouts when he was in LA. And in Milwaukee. The short story is I brought a kid with me one year to watch Steph go through a pregame workout, a kid that was working with our basketball company, and the conversation that unfolded with between this, this kid and stuff, I realized that yeah, Steph put a ton of time in on the court. He’s passionate about the game. But he did define his self worth by his performance on the basketball court. He was having this conversation with with this kid about friends about school about his family, other interests outside of basketball, I realized that that stuff defines his self worth by the totality of his human experience by how he is as a husband, a father, an activist, and entrepreneur. And that takes pressure off and when he steps out on the court, and this is what allows him to be in this state of flow that allows him to play with so much joy, freedom, gratitude, and creativity because he goes one for 10 For the three point line, or nine for 10. From the three point line, when he walks off the court, he’s going to feel the same way about himself. And so this is what what allows him to drop into the present moment where like I was talking about before, right? The present moments where everything that we want in life in business exists, right, it’s in the present moment, locking in on that, that task at hand, his belief that I am more than an athlete allows him to do that. And I think that’s a lesson that we can all all take into any area of life. I’m more than an entrepreneur, I’m more than a speaker, I’m more than a podcast host I’m more than a, whatever it is. It allows us to take some of that that weight off that pressure off the standards and the expectations that we place on ourselves that help us get to the top and also be the things that make us fall off the mound. And so I think it sounds counterintuitive that we would place our identity in a variety of things, but it actually I think it makes us better in all areas.

Adam Outland
Yeah. If you’re a parent and your kid is your entire life where that kid graduates and doesn’t really quote unquote need you as much anymore. It tears parents up, right? If you’re, you’re an athlete, and that’s your entire box like it is for so many college athletes. And so there’s so much merit I think to everybody that listens to the more elaborate your boxes with where confidence is spread out between family and health and all these different interests and things that you’ve developed. It creates a lot more of a foundation if you if if and when you lose one of those spots. Since it doesn’t absorb the whole thing.

Mike Lee
100% yea. And it’s a tough thing. What’s really tough is when you’re so passionate about something to separate yourself from it, we’re so attached is not the right word, intertwine. We’re so intertwined with our work, as you know, especially if you are an entrepreneur, and this business is something that you birth, like, it’s your child. Like, it’s so it’s really difficult to do that. But I think there’s a lot of power in it when you do.

Adam Outland
You know, it’s got some, I guess, relatability to like that Zen culture of like, it’s not detachment from everything in life, but being careful to not put too much attachment and interweave too much of yourself and things. I mean, is that part of what you believe or agree in somewhat.

Mike Lee
100%, I am working on that every single day non judgment and detachment, I really want when an event happens, like just being completely detached from it, and and not judging it, I really don’t know, I think it’s hard to describe this without coming off as being a victim, one of my beliefs that I hold and and I truly try to apply this in everything that I do. And that’s I know nothing, right. And it’s coming from a place of humility, but also just complete detachment from from expectations for results from material things for relationships, and it’s more so coming from it sounds cold, it sounds like, you know, you’re not Oh, you’re not emotionally invested in anything. It’s not that I’m not emotionally invested in things, I’m just psychologically try to detach from an expectation of an outcome, I guess, is the best way to put it. Because I think, you know, I can’t tell you how many things I’ve worked on in my life where I have, I’ve worked insanely hard at something, and it just did not come to life. But there are also things that that just kind of came through that I had feel like I had no influence on it, right. And so just really coming from that place of detachment, I think is super, super powerful. And, and the reason it’s powerful is it allows you to stay centered, it allows you to stay grounded, it allows you to stay in the present moment, right? If we get super attached to a future outcome that’s going to drive our mind so far to the future that it takes us off of what we can actually control in the present moment. Right. And then if the outcome does not manifest, and we are super attached to it, now we are stuck in the past. And we’re also out of the present moment. So I think there’s there’s a there’s a lot of power in in the practice of detachment and non judgement.

Adam Outland
Yeah. So talk about like functionality, because knowing this stuff, you gotta meet people where they’re at, right, and I’m assuming doing the work that you do at that level, and you’re getting with people that haven’t experienced any of that, that don’t necessarily share that core belief set before they start working with you. So what are some things that you do in the beginning of a relationship to kind of open them up to explore.

Mike Lee
Such a great question, it comes down to awareness, just really being aware of where they’re at being able to see the next step for them, and not taking them, you know, if they only need to go one step not trying to take them eight steps, because that’s where you’re at? I think there is some ego involved in that. It’s like, well, this is this is where I’m at, and this is the knowledge that I have in this moment that is relevant for me, and and I, the ego, like I had to achieve this or go through this or whatever it is to get to this level. So I should be, I should be teaching at this level. Right? When the reality of is it’s not about you, it’s about them. And you might have to scale back to make things timely and relevant and actionable for where they are at in this moment. And so I think it comes down to awareness and getting out of your ego.

Adam Outland
Yeah. So how do you share some of this message, some of your message, is an application and leadership that helped them change their approach to working with their people.

Mike Lee
I think the first thing is getting clear on vision and getting clear on purpose. I think everything is driven from those two things ethic when we get crystal clear on those that can drive the process to bring bring those things to life and I think especially in in today’s world, getting crystal clear on your purpose and your why is it’s just so so important. If I didn’t have purpose and meaning over the past, just you know what, what everything that I’ve kind of shared you I don’t know where I would be to be honest with you like I was in some really, really bad places. But But I had a connection to something bigger than myself, I had some sort of why. And the research shows that having a clearly defined purpose, improves your motivation improves focus, and improves your resilience. And so I think as much as it’s important to get clear on that, to get to the next level to bring this vision to life, it is even more important to get clear on it for when you go through adversity. Because when you go through adversity, you need a vision to rely upon, you need a why, because you’re going to get knocked down, things are not going to go as planned, the strategy is not going to go from A to B, B to C, C to D, like you had written out, your five year plan is not going to work. It’s more serious, you know, six to 12 month plan in today’s world. And so getting getting clear on the why, and then being open to how that actually manifests, right? And a perfect example, I guess is is with COVID. And hopefully we don’t have to go through anything like this again. But you know, the reality of it is we’re going to go through something like something’s going to happen, right? And so a lot of service based industries that we’re working with people in person or the fitness industry, the speaking industry is a great example. You had to go back. Yeah, I can’t be with people in person right now. But what is the impact that I want to make? And what avenue what, what medium can I use in order to get to the end result to get to the impact? And I think knowing your purpose allows you to focus on not so much be attached to the process of the impact, but the impact itself? If that makes sense.

Adam Outland
Yeah. And I think about college, or high school students where they’re going through, a lot of them went through a massive depressive period during COVID. Because they were isolated. I mean, and so I guess, you know, if you have one, what would be kind of an action that you would suggest, whether it’s, you know, a college athlete that maybe just got injured, and it’s going through that kind of function, reprocessing their future, it’s, it’s figured out a new vision, but what what are some other actions that maybe you suggest to someone that’s pulling themselves out of one mindset into a healthier mindset?

Mike Lee
I got a lot of things that are coming to my mind, because I think you know, a lot a lot of people go through number number one like talking about for get get clear on a vision, get clear on a why. Second thing is to just pay, you know, try to operate with a beginner’s mindset from the standpoint of try to let go of this identity that you had in the past and your passion from the past that maybe is maybe it’s just simply no longer possible. Maybe it is an injury, that career ending injury, just it’s just simply not possible anymore. Probably come from it from a beginner’s mindset from the standpoint of just being really aware of what your interests are. Maybe it’s something that you were interested in, in high school, but you were just so dedicated to basketball or to football, or whatever it is that you just couldn’t couldn’t pursue it. Right. It was just not you had to braid one thing for the other pay attention to what just your interests are, what were you’re interested in, what did you maybe want to do that you had to sacrifice? I don’t think I feel like I’m kind of lucky from the standpoint that that it was clear for me. For some people it’s not, I think one of the big things to keep in mind is you don’t always have to be operating at this deeper level of purpose. But what you need to do is you need to operate with a deep level of intention with everything that you do. And so I think, you know, that takes a little bit of the pressure off. I think there you know, there’s a lot a lot of people in the self help space leadership space, everything is like you got to find your purpose, find your purpose, find your why. Right. And it’s like it’s not it comes when it comes and it’s really important to give yourself the permission to not have it figured out yet. I feel like everything that I’ve done in my life has been here was a pain point. I solved this, I figured it out. And now I’m teaching somebody else to go through the same thing that I went through. And so look at what are some pain points in your life? What are some things what have you had to go through? What are the lessons that you’ve learned? And now how can I use this as a way how can I teach others how to go through the same thing? Because if you went through it, somebody else went through it and you probably have a unique perspective on on it that is going to be able to connect with somebody else and that’s going to be fulfilling right art of purpose is finding what’s fulfilling. Well, what’s fulfilling is, is you know, being of service and helping other people out find find At a pain point that you want to solve, figure out how to how to go through it yourself and teach others to do it. That’s a great place to start, as you know, give yourself permission to not have it figured out and to look at some pain points in your life that you had to solve, and that you’ve learned something from and you can teach to other people.

Adam Outland
Love that. We’re going to end this with just spitball questions that are somewhat short answer, just a piece of technology that you feel you’ve used. Maybe it’s an app on your phone that’s kind of helped in some of these ways. Is there anything you’d recommend?

Mike Lee
I know, you said, short answer. I mean, up to number one, A is fine. If you want to dive into talking about meditation a lot in the beginning, you want to dive into into meditation, get an app, you have to have a guided audio experience, especially when you first start out reading about it. And then trying to practice it or not having a guide is incredibly frustrating. And you’re going to quit because it’s going to be too challenging. So find a guided app, let’s face it, great. That’s what I use. Second thing is I don’t talk about this a lot. But there’s an app called Focus timer. It’s an app for it’s a desktop app. I don’t know if they have it for your phone or not. But it’s a desktop apps for Mac for sure. Maybe for PC. And when you have a task that you need to complete, we need like some sort of psychological triggers, right? It’s like when I was coaching, basketball players, every drill that we did, our goal had had to hit that goal within a certain timeframe, right, and it creates psychological, it’s a psychological trigger to get you to lock in and get you to focus, right? So a focus timer and set a time to complete certain tasks. I think it’ll help help you level up your focus.

Adam Outland
Productivity. Yeah. The last question is this one piece of advice that you would give yourself at the age of 21. Knowing everything you have now.

Mike Lee
Don’t be so hard on yourself. It’s all working out the way it’s supposed to. And the view every adversity as a catalyst for growth, and not look at something that’s happening to you look at it as something that’s happening for you, and lean into that challenge that adversity with a growth mindset. Because what you learn from that experience is something that you’re going to be able to teach and the more you become, the more that you can give. And if you’re providing value for people, you’re not gonna have to worry about anything in your life.

Adam Outland
I think those last few sentences were the perfect way to end a great interview. So thank you for making the time for this Mike, it was really good.

Mike Lee
Yeah, thanks for having me on. We’ll continue the conversation soon.