The Answer Is In {THE AND}, with Topaz Adizes – Episode 476 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

Topaz Adizes, an Emmy Award-winning writer, director, author, experience design architect, and founder of The Skin Deep, explains why the mind is built to protect you but heart is built to connect you and how the quality of your life is correlated with the quality of your relationships, why not sleeping in your kitchen is important and why not to confuse comfort with safety, shares the importance of his first kiss and on focusing on questions over answers, dives into his new book, and tackles the question of what IS humanity?

About Topaz:

Topaz Adizes is an Emmy award-winning writer, director, and experience design architect. He is an Edmund Hillary fellow and Sundance/Skoll stories of change fellow. His works have been selected to Cannes, Sundance, IDFA, and SXSW; featured in New Yorker magazine, Vanity Fair, and the New York Times; and have garnered an Emmy for new approaches to documentary and two World Press photo awards for immersive storytelling and interactive documentary. He is currently the founder and executive director of the experience design studio The Skin Deep. Topaz studied philosophy at UC Berkeley and Oxford University. He speaks four languages, and currently lives in Mexico with his wife and two children. His most recent work is the book, 12 Questions for Love: A Guide to Intimate Conversations and Deeper Relationships. 

For more about The Skin Deep, visit TheSkinDeep.com.

To learn more about Topaz Adizes and his work, visit TopazAdizes.com.

The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

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(Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

Stephanie Maas
Okay, just so, you know, I am so hyped to talk to you.

Topaz Adizes
Definitely, let’s do it, how you doing?

Stephanie Maas
Oh, awesome. How are you?

Topaz Adizes
Good, very happy to be here.

Stephanie Maas
Yeah, we’re happy to have you. I’m super excited.

Topaz Adizes
Where are you at? Are you in? Where are you at? What is that behind you?

Stephanie Maas
Nashville, Tennessee.

Topaz Adizes
I left my heart in Nashville. My high school girlfriend played soccer at Vanderbilt. Summer love freshman year, went there. Broke my heart.

Stephanie Maas
We’re sorry.

Topaz Adizes
That’s my that’s my memory of Vander… of Nashville, Tennessee, which I hear is an amazing city.

Stephanie Maas
Come back, bring your family. It’s an incredible town.

Topaz Adizes
Super cool.

Stephanie Maas
Okay, so I have so many questions. I have a pretty decent human curiosity slash fascination with psychology of humans, and one of my favorite ways to engage is just asking questions. I’m just curious. That’s going to be my thing, my epitaph, I’m just curious. And your background this phrase illuminating humanity. Where does that come from? For you?

Topaz Adizes
Yeah, good question. Um, what is humanity? I ask that a lot, and I also ask if, if it’s humanity I love, or is it humans I love? Frankly, I’m not sure. I like humans, but I love humanity. But what is humanity? I think humanity is not something that’s in us. I think it’s what’s between us, it’s that incredible conversation you have with a stranger in the taxi that we used to have before we had phones, or in the elevator on the plane flight, where you just share about life, and you find this resonant connection with someone or your shared reflection, even though you have two disparate souls that will never meet again, and you have that moment of like, ah, or you have a big fight with your best friend or your partner or your sibling, and you go through it, and then afterwards, you can look at each other in the eye, and you just feel a sense of connection, of understanding, right? Or you’re on that sports team where you or a work team where you have a common goal, and you work through the long hours a night, or challenges and and you accomplish that goal. You successfully do it together, and you look each other, you have a high five, or you have that shared goal, and there’s a sense of like coherence with each other. For a moment, you don’t feel lonely. You’ve shared something, you’ve accomplished something, you’ve gone through a test, you come out together and you feel connected with someone that, to me, is humanity. So the question is, how do you cultivate it? And that’s what I’ve been exploring for the last 11 years, and you’re asking, Where does it come from? Well, it comes from a deep wound. Look, my kid, my parents got divorced when I was four, and I was the oldest sibling. I have a siblings 15 months younger. And you know, when you’re four years old, you look up these parents that you have, and they’re not parents. They’re gods. I mean, when you’re that young, your parents are incredible beings, right? When the gods are going at war, you start going, what’s this about my parents? Great parents have great relationships with them. Now. Them, getting divorced was a great thing for them. And frankly, as painful as it was for me, it was good for me too. Why? Because it created a hunger for connection and intimacy. And so first, it started as a wound that turned into a hunger that became a gift. You know, I went into filmmaking as a young person, you know, my 20s and 30s, and I found that the camera was a great bridge. It was a door opener. It was entering in people’s world, and I could record them, I could talk to them, I could ask questions. And so I’ve used that gift of filmmaking to create this project called the and, and I think it’s a wonderful archive of human relationships, but that ultimately comes from a deep wound as a child of witnessing divorce and seeing a lack of connection.

Stephanie Maas
So then, do you remember the first time you had a consciousness, an awareness of, hey, this is real human connection?

Topaz Adizes
My first kiss, my first kiss, which was late in life. I was 17. It was end of my junior year of high school, and I remember intentionally. I know this is probably not what anybody’s expecting to hear on this podcast, but you asked the question, and I remember, as a young person, I said, I don’t want to, I know I’m a very passionate person, and if I start engaging like physically with someone kissing, I’m going to be very emotionally passionate, and I’m going to want to go far, so I need to wait until I’m mature enough to do that. I don’t want to do that when I’m 13 or 14. So I anyways, end of junior year, and I remember looking the eyes of this, you know, young woman who’s in my class, who are both juniors, and I just remember my heart exploding, looking into her eyes. I saw the. Whole universe in her eyes, and I felt the whole universe in my heart. And that’s the moment when I felt like connection. That’s what I’ve been yearning for and looking for, and that was, I guess, the first time I really felt that.

Stephanie Maas
So the physical connection was the kiss.

Topaz Adizes
It’s not the kiss, it’s looking in the other person in the eye and having this strong emotion for them. It wasn’t, you know, just the act of the kiss, the kiss was followed that but it was looking into some other person’s Deep Black Onyx of the eye. You know, we often forget that if you look at any animal and any human, regardless of what it is and what color eye it is, at the center, it’s always the same color. It’s a Black Onyx. And isn’t that interesting? I mean, I don’t care if it’s a snake, a shark or a human. The center is a Black Onyx, and we look in the depth of a Black Onyx of another human being. There’s a journey there to be had.

Stephanie Maas
So then we fast forward, and you go, Okay, I want to spend a lot of my time in craft, seeking that, sharing it with others.

Topaz Adizes
Well, you know, it’s funny, when you and I look back, I can find this undercurrents of what shaped me, what did life sculpt into me? What experience does it give me such that I was in a position to receive this beautiful format that then we’re applying and sharing with the world? On the top line, it’s, you know, I was a filmmaker. I had films that went to Sundance, and then I had a film at Cannes, and things were not taking off. You know, I had films set up, and it was it. But just I was my friends were doing really well. And even though I had done really successfully, you know, two at Sundance and one at Canada, which is the biggest film festival in the world, it wasn’t picking up. And by accident, I put the film on Vimeo without a password, and it got picked up as short of the week. And in one week, I had 400 500,000 views in one week, and that was a big Hey, wait a second, what game Am I playing? What game Am I playing? And I just want to share with the audience, if you’re going to take anything away from this conversation, it’s that we need to focus on the questions we ask ourselves and our team members, not on the answers. And so that question of, hey, what game Am I playing? Because, until that point, I was playing the game of being a film director, right? But then I just got half a million people, 400,000 people in one week to watch my film. Well, how much time, money and energy would that take me to do that in this other route? What game Am I playing? Am I playing the game of film director? You know, modern day, popular culture meditations, what I saw cinema as, or I want to play that game of injecting ideas into the mainstream, of offering new perspectives to the mainstream. And if that’s the game I want to play, don’t play it in theaters. Play in the digital platforms, because it spreads us much faster. It was 2011 Well, if we move the digital field, what, what’s worthwhile talking about, what’s personal to me, and at that time, I was living in Brooklyn, New York, and I have a brother who’s 16 years younger than I, and we were both single, and I saw how we were both dating completely differently because of our relationships to technology. I remember one time I was writing a script, and I was in Sun Valley, Idaho, and I would been dating a woman in New York and and I sent her a text saying, Hey, thank you love or something. And she goes Topaz. When you write love in your text message, do you mean that, like an English person just saying love is some kind of passing vernacular, or do you really mean love? I said, Oh, wait, wait, wait, I gotta call this person. So I called her up and we have a 45 minute talk. And at the end of the talk, she said, You know what? Thank you so much for calling me. Because in all the past relationships I’ve been having last few years, every time we talk about something intimate, it’s over text. And I really appreciate you calling me. And I remember thinking that’s not what shocked me. What shocked me was that she was only five years younger than I and yet the generational gap was, of course, I’m going to call you when I have a conversation. And yet in the people she was dating five years younger, it was actually more normal to text. And what I realized is, and that, along with my brother and how he was dating differently than I was, was that, how is the emotional experience of being human? How we relate to each other? How do we articulate our emotions? How do we feel our emotions changing in lieu of all this technology that’s coming to our lives? And that set me off on the journey of like, okay, I want to explore that theme, because that’s incredible. And I’m going to do on the digital platforms. I’m going to inject ideas in the mainstream, inject questions in the mainstream via digital platforms, because that’s the quickest way, most engaging way to do it. But the subject I want to explore is the emotional experience of being human. How is that shifting in the landscape of all this technology that’s coming up, and thus launched the skin deep, which is an experience design studio. And then under that, we have a bunch of different experiences and products, of which the and is the most famous, we have questions and card games and videos, and that’s that’s where we’re at today.

Stephanie Maas
So one of the things we hear a lot about is, because of the age of technology that we’re in, we’re more connected than we’ve ever been, and yet we’re less connected than we’ve ever been. So I can see two schools of thought on this book, 12 questions for love, a guide to intimate conversations and deeper relationships. I can see some folks going, Oh, my God, I don’t need to be. Told I’m a terrible partner and I’m terrible at all these things. No, thank you. And then, of course, I see a natural audience. They go, Oh my gosh. I’ve been seeking these things show me and tell me how to do this. For the naysayers, why is this worth their time?

Topaz Adizes
Totally. Great question. Who do you know has sat through and watched over 1200 pairs of people in intimate, real, courageous conversations? Maybe a therapist. But then who’s asking the questions when you go to couples therapy, therapist is who are the couples looking at when they’re talking about the answers? They’re looking at the therapist. They’re not looking at each other. What we’ve done and what my team and I have had the privilege and honor is for the last 11 years in 10 countries, over 1200 pairs to bring them into a room. And I’m not just talking about talking about partners who are married or dating. I’m talking about grandparents with their children, best friends, siblings bring them. They sit down and for an hour and an hour and 20 minutes, they’re facing each other, and the space is theirs. We’ve laid down questions for them to ask each other, and they go off and literally, we’re just sitting there watching them. I’ve been doing that for the last 11 years. That data set is gigantic, so that, to me, has been a privilege, because I’ve been able to witness, how do you create the space to have these cathartic conversations? And that’s something that we don’t get taught. We taught that by modeling our family or maybe our friends group. And in the case of work, the companies you work at, you model it, but you’re not necessarily taught it, because no one’s tested it out over time so many times. And so that’s what’s worthwhile in the book, is that look, here are 12 questions to have a cathartic conversation. But what’s most important is teaching you how is you need to create the space, and two, how to construct great questions. These are tools that you can bring into your toolkit, that you can apply to your relationship with your friends, family and co workers, anyone in your life.

Stephanie Maas
So what I’m hearing you say, because I want to be really intentional about this message getting out. This isn’t about, hey, how to be a better boyfriend or be a better husband or spouse or whatever. This is about how to connect at what I call a real level with another human, in a way that, if I’m hearing you right, both parties walk away saying that was a good use of my time, and with the hope of a deeper, more meaningful connection to another human.

Topaz Adizes
100%. Absolutely, part of creating this space is that you need to come at it without An agenda. And what I mean by agenda is not bullet points. What we’re talking about, I’m talking about agenda of where we’re going to end up. You have to come with an intention. But the point is, the bottom line is, how do we create the space with well constructed questions? What’s the result? Is, I want to have a conversation. We don’t have a conversation where we’re exploring our relationship. Here’s the formula. Esther Perel, you know, the famous, uh, author and therapist in that field, she says, look, the quality of your life is commensurate to the quality of your relationships. All right, if I buy that great well, then how do I have quality relationships? One way to do it is have quality conversations. We’re blessed with the ability to communicate our ideas and stories. What makes us so successful as humans. We can communicate ideas and emotions, stories and beliefs and have conversations, right? Okay, how do we have good conversations? That’s where I come in. So if you create the space and you ask well constructed questions, you can have incredible conversations. Guess what? If you have incredible conversations, you have incredible relationships. If you have incredible relationships, you’d have incredible life. Why? Cuz your relationships reflect your experience of what it means to be human and to be alive. That’s the formula.

Stephanie Maas
Okay, even at the end of the day, if you ultimately don’t share someone’s opinion, you disagree with them, you part ways and decide, hey, I don’t want to be in a relationship, whether it’s work or whatever the case may be, I think so much is doing it in a healthy way that even if something ends both people go, Hey, that was still worth my time. That was still meaningful like so with that, talk to me about what are the things people do wrong when they are attempting to create space? And what are some things to keep in mind?

Topaz Adizes
What things to keep in mind and what people do wrong. You don’t sleep in the kitchen and you don’t cook in the bedroom. You do certain things in certain spaces. So are we articulating the rooms we’re in, in the house of our relationship, talking about work, right? What kind of meeting are we having right now? Do we tell the people to do that? Do we tell people what kind of meeting we’re having? We’re doing a brain story meeting team. The reason you tell them about the space you’re in is that you’re articulating what is permissible, what’s acceptable, what is what we were suggesting. This is the behavior that we want. Ah, this is the game we’re playing in the kitchen. You know, you’re cooking, you’re not going to sleep in the kitchen. And in the bedroom, you’re sleeping. You’re not cooking in there. So the expectations or permissions are clear in our relationships. Are we doing the same? So the work world is like, Okay, if we call a meeting, what kind of meeting is this? What’s the phase we’re in now? Are we brainstorming? Because how many times are you in a brainstorming meeting where everyone’s brainstorming at the end, there’s no decisions made? People are upset. Wait, hold on, this was a brainstorming meeting, so don’t expect us to end up with a decision or vice versa. It is a decision making meeting. You’re not interested in new ideas. We need to decide who’s doing what by when and how. Now people are like, wait. They’re never asking for ideas, and I know we got to be clear about what kind of meeting this is, and that’s part of the space, so that’s one thing too. Let’s not confuse comfort and safety, or let’s not confuse discomfort with being unsafe. Let’s not confound them. Safety is imperative, but discomfort is great. If I wanted to go bungee jumping, in theory, I should be safe, because these guys have done it all the time. The rope is tested. You know, I’m like, the 5000 person doing this, and okay, so in theory, I’m safe because they’ve checked everything. They know the bunch is good. But am I uncomfortable? Absolutely I’m uncomfortable. But that doesn’t mean I’m not safe. Now, in your conversations at work or with relationships. Are you safe? How do we create that safety? Well, part of it is articulating, hey, what’s the room we’re in? What are the rules? What are the boundaries here, what is expected? And then to say, okay, in that space now we can ask these construct, well constructed questions that put us in discomfort. And we can actually be uncomfortable because we know we’re safe, but just because you’re uncomfortable does not meet You’re not safe. And vice versa, just because you’re still comfortable does not actually mean you’re safe. So making that distinction is good, and not shying away from discomfort and actually leaning into it, but making sure that the space is created, that you feel safe and then you can ask questions in a way that reinforce that safety or not, there’s a lot of power in the questions. And we’re always so focused on the answers, and we don’t realize how, by shaping the question, you are shaping the answer. This is huge. So let me just give a very simple example. It’s 738 o’clock, and you go to your kids and you say, Hey, do you want to go to sleep? What do you think the answer is? We all know it’s no. You ask the question, do you want to go to sleep? It’s like, yes or no. I mean, okay, but if you go and say, Hey kids, you want to sleep on the couch or in the bed, you’ve already saved the answer. The answer is, bed or the couch, the question has shaped the answer the options. Oftentimes we’re so good at finding answers, but oftentimes we find the right answers to the wrong questions. Put more emphasis on the questions. Why did this campaign fail? Why did this candidate not work out? What about saying? Let me change that question. What can we learn from this campaign that we could take to the next what was the failure of this candidate that started the company and didn’t work out? What could we do to improve to ensure that the next one doesn’t have the same failure? So you’re asking questions that are giving you answers that are constructive, that you can actually have agency from, versus saying, why did this campaign not work? Oh, here’s 1000 reasons. Why not shift the question such that the answers you get are going to be constructive to your life, to your business? Let’s just take a very simple question, because power dynamics are really important in the workplace, and you’re trying to create a safe space where you can share your opinion, but you also don’t want to get fired or pissed off the boss or the politics of the culture. So you’re in a meeting. It’s a group of you, and whoever’s running the meeting with the parades, let’s say they are, the executive who’s running the meeting has responsibility for some decisions, or the unit leading the team, and they ask a question. First of all, the fact that they’re asking a question is already a power play, because they get to ask the question, and everyone the team is going wait, why are they asking that question? But here comes that question. You’re in the meeting, and the boss goes, Stephanie, why did our marketing campaign fail? Why did the product fail, or whatever? Why did the product succeed? That question shapes that your answer is going to give an objective truth about reality. It failed because this and this, and this, this, now everyone else in the room is going, that’s not why it failed. No, wait, that doesn’t wait, found and now we have some type of conflict, because the question has actually invited you to give an objective truth which everyone else has different opinions about. If you just add the words, why do you think, or why do you feel? You see how that preamps any kind of conflict going forward, because this is your subjective opinion. I can’t disagree with your subjective opinion. And by asking that in the especially in the power dynamic space, it’s like inviting you in to give your opinion. And this is inviting you step in in this way that’s safe, because we can’t really argue with your subjective experience. So you can say, from my point of view.dot.if, the boss says, Why did the product fail, your response can start just say, from my point of view, but a better question as a leader is to say, Why do you think, why do you feel that’s her experience? That’s her POV. Thank you for your POV. What’s your POV? Jimmy, and from that, we’re inviting different POVs to illuminate all the opportunities for challenge. And then we could discuss, from that, what do we think is objectively true or not, but just by adding Why do you think? Why do you feel, is already shaping an answer that’s less confrontational, less conflict, and there’s a lot of little semantic tools we can use in constructing questions to invite sharing while still keeping it safe, albeit uncomfortable.

Stephanie Maas
These are things that are not often talked about on leadership as it should be. I do think leadership is a privilege, and a lot of what we’ve talked about through this podcast is stepping into leadership is not what it was back, probably when our parents were in business, it was management. We’re not doing that anymore.

Topaz Adizes
Which I think is really important for a leader. When you talk about leader, I love the fact you said it’s a privilege. I think these days, I think if you. See leadership as a privilege and a responsibility. I think that’s a wonderful way to see that, because you you do have the power dynamics. So how are you utilizing that to make a more coherent team? Why? So that we could be more successful together? Why? So that we can earn the financial income and resources by providing value to our clients, or whoever it is, to our market, such that we could support our the passions of ourselves and the well being of our family and the loved ones and our community. You know you could cut off a friend if you disagree, you could do that. Family members much more difficult. But co workers. Only way to cut someone off is one of you has to get fired. One of you has to quit. And so sometimes you really have to face conflict with the people you work with, because otherwise your livelihood is at stake. So the stakes of being able to work coherently together are even more important. And so the leadership, you say, privilege, I think that’s a great way, and part of that is how to create the space and acknowledge the power dynamic in the room. We often don’t do it, but by doing it, it’s actually calling the elephant in the room, by articulating your intention, not your agenda. And the intention could be what I mean by that is not the bullet points. Agenda. I’m talking about agenda is where we end up. Oftentimes, you go to your team and you’re like, you’ve already made a decision. You just want to convince everyone on your point of view, and everyone knows it, and there’s a power dynamic. So they don’t really want to push back. So they’re just, we’re just playing politics here. But instead, as a leader, if you really want to get their feedback, because they can see things that you can’t. Maybe they could see the potential weaknesses or the benefits that you don’t, or they can reinforce how good the idea is or not. How do you invite that is by stating your intention, which is like, hey, my intention in the meeting is like, I have an idea. Yes, I do. And yeah, I’d like to get there, but I know that I might be wrong, and I want to have a meeting now to explore it. So you’re not saying I want to get here, and you, I have to convince you. You’re saying that’s my intention, is to get there. But I know I’m right. So my actual intention is to explore that possible answer and see if there’s a better one. You see how that’s much more inviting, because often we don’t do that. We say the agenda is we’re going to talk about this, this, this, this, and get to here. And in the back of your mind what I really mean, the intentions, we know where we’re ending up, and the whole team knows that’s where you’re ending up, and maybe they don’t want to end want to end up there, but they’re not really going to push back. But if you suggest an intention and get the space open, then you can get more from your team, get more opinions, and then ultimately, you’ll make the decision if you’re the leader, right, but you’ll do with much clearer viewpoint of where everyone’s at. With more information.

Stephanie Maas
Let me segueway and draw into your experience over the last 11 years. So I would imagine there are some folks that sat down and just couldn’t wait to engage, and they were just game players from the get go. Those are the easy folks and fun folks to work with, because they’re easy and fun. What are just a couple of things? How do you get when you’re fighting that resistance? You know, as a leader, you’re doing, you’re saying things, you’re being thoughtful. But human nature is there the skeptics. There are the negative nancies. There are the uh huh. I know what they’re doing here. I’m not going to let them manipulate me, and I’m going to stay shut down and guarded. Anything that you can shed some light on those to get through to those folks.

Topaz Adizes
Okay, wow, this is a big one. So usually there’s one person who’s amped, and usually one that’s reticent. You know one, usually it’s one person who’s dragged the other person over. And then there’s an interesting dynamic that happens and shifts. If you want to have this conversation with someone in your life, you have to offer it as a gift, as an offering, not again. It’s like you’re not ending. You don’t want to have an agenda that they’re going to open up and cry and tell you they love you, but you have an intention of exploring it, and you have to be open to seeing where it goes. If your partner comes to you and asks you a complicated question, out of the blue, you’re not wondering about the answer. You’re wondering, Where is this coming from? And so you’re you’re not engaging with the heart, if you will. You’re engaging with your mind to protect you, right? Because the mind is built to protect you, while the heart’s built to connect you. So how do you connect to the heart? That’s the question. So in the workplace, it’s a little more challenging, right? Because, yeah, we want you to tell your opinions, but we’re also protecting ourselves because our livelihoods and the power dynamics, because the leader, how do you create the space that invites conflict discomfort so that you can harness that conflict to make better decisions, find opportunities, but do it in a way that’s constructive. It’s all about creating the space and asking well constructed questions that reinforce that space right of safety, albeit discomfort. So look, in a relationship, you ask a question if your partner doesn’t want to answer it, they don’t have to answer it, nor should they, but you do have to ask every question you know, and you don’t have to answer it. Maybe don’t answer now, that’s totally fine. You should, as a part, you should allow your partner to be who they are if they don’t want to answer it. Now, that’s fine. And if they don’t emotionally articulate their emotions in the same way, I call it emotion articulation, in the same way that you do. You know you have to let go. You have to accept them for who they are, where they’re at in the workplace, you bring an idea to the table. You do want people’s input, right? You want everyone to participate, so you get that information in a time efficient manner, and you have to create a space where you’re inviting maybe the introverts out, or the ones who you know need the memo before, so they can give time to understanding, so understanding who’s in the room and how maybe some of them don’t want to prep, because that’s not their best off the cuff. Yes, and other people, they need the memo before to read, think about it over the weekend, and then when they come in, they have thoughts. We process think differently, which is an advantage, by the way, but it makes differences, which makes leadership more difficult. How do you create the space which are facilitating everyone to perform the best way they can, and the coherence of the team to do it in a way that’s integrated so that we get we can find the magic between us. You can find the magic in the spaces between of the different points of view that we have. And so that has to do, again, with the space and creating a vibe. We’re like, you don’t have to perform a certain way, but I do want you to perform in your best way. That’s huge, right? It’s not like we don’t want everyone being effusive and talking No, no, no, but I want you to fully show up as you, and I want them to fully show up as them, and we accept it, and we trust that we’re all going to the same spot, the same goal, and we respect that we all have different points of views and ways of taking information in and then sharing and articulating that information, you create that kind of space, right? And those kind of and we facilitate that with Will the constructions that reinforce that and the behavior of how we listen to each other and respond. But as a leader, you gotta know, how can I create the space for each of my team members to really show up? I mean, I think if anything I’ve said here is helpful for people. I think the value offering is, yes, there’s a book, and yes, we have, like, 15 editions of card games that you could use with relationship but the newest one is called team building, and we have a team building deck that you can play with. We have that and a co worker’s deck. The co workers is really focused on the organization and what you’re doing together. Team Building is for any team and how we operate together. They can find it on our store, on Amazon.

Stephanie Maas
This has been huge. Thank you so much.

Topaz Adizes
Thank you. Thank you, Stephanie, my pleasure.