Putting Feet to Vision, with Jenni Catron – Episode 26 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

Culture strategist and leadership coach Jenni Catron takes a hard look at “clout killers”, and talks about exchanging fear for truth, comparison vs jealousy, combating a scarcity mentality, the duality of insecurity and pride, and how control means putting power over influence.

About Jenni:

Jenni Catron is a writer, speaker, and leadership expert whose passion is to lead well and to inspire, equip and encourage others to do the same. She speaks at conferences nationwide, seeking to help others develop their leadership gifts and lead confidently. As Founder and CEO of The 4Sight Group, she consults with individuals and teams on leadership and organizational health.

Jenni Catron’s life pursuit has been to uncover her God-given gifts and cultivate those with great passion and purpose.  At the age of thirteen, she set her sights on working in the music business in Nashville, TN, where she felt she could combine her business sense (yes, she already called herself a business woman at thirteen) with her passion for music.  

While earning her bachelor of science in business degree from Middle Tennessee State University, Jenni simultaneously pursued her dream of working in the music industry.  For nine years she climbed the corporate ladder at EMI’s Nashville office.  Employed by one of the world’s leading music companies, she traveled the globe marketing, branding, and promoting top Christian music artists.  

As a founding member and early volunteer of Cross Point Church in Nashville, TN, Jenni was passionate about putting her organizational development strengths and brand development and leadership instincts to work for her growing church. Jenni served as executive director for nine years. In her role, she led the staff through the transitions associated with growing from 500 to more than 6,000 in attendance, and led the expansion from one to five locations.  

Additionally, Jenni spent two years on staff at Menlo Church in Menlo Park, CA as Executive Pastor revitalizing their multi-site strategy and realigning the team for growth.  

In 2016 Jenni launched The 4Sight Group enabling her to give greater time and attention to the development of her passion to work with leaders in both ministry and marketplace as well as devote more energy to writing and speaking on subjects of leadership and organizational strategy.

Jenni is the author of several books including Clout: Discover and Unleash Your God-Given Influence and The 4 Dimensions of Extraordinary Leadership. Jenni writes regularly at www.get4sight.com and contributes to a number of other online publications as well. Outreach Magazine has recognized her as one of the thirty emerging influencers reshaping church leadership

Jenni loves a fabulous cup of tea, great books, learning the game of tennis, and hiking with her husband.

Learn more at JenniCatron.com.

The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

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(Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

Host
Jenni Catron has a knack and a love and a passion for putting feet to vision, as she says, and making vision reality. She has had this book, and I’ve known about it for several months, called Clout, discover and unleash your God given influence. So without further ado, please help me welcome the one and only miss Jenni Catron, Jenni, thanks so much for being with us.

Jenni Catron
Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to share a little bit more about the book. Thank you so much. This is awesome.

Host
You know, why did you write this book? Like, where did the idea come from? How did you get started?

Jenni Catron
Yeah, yeah. You know, I’ve always been a leadership junkie. Like, I don’t know that even as a kid, I knew how to what the word was, but I knew what leadership looked like, and it was something that I was really drawn to. So, you know, so I think just my whole life, I’ve kind of aspired to understanding leadership and what helps leaders tick, and, you know, how we influence others, and what that looks like. And so this book, clout really is, is a lot of my heart kind of in written form of like the things that I wished I had known as a leader earlier on that so maybe that I wouldn’t have misstepped, you know, in some certain ways along the way and clout, discover and unleash your God. Given influence is just that idea that leadership begins with influence. You know, I think John Maxwell is quoted with saying, leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less. And I’ll often push back on that a little bit to go. I think leadership starts with influence, but how we steward that influence impacts what how we’re able to really live out our leadership. So, you know? So this was, to me, was, well, what is the core of influence look like? So if leadership starts with influence, what does it mean to really develop that influence, develop that clout, if you will, that gives us the platform to lead from. And so this was kind of a journey for me of saying, You know what, I see a lot of things in my life that are holding me back or hindering me, tripping me up from really being the leader I should be. And you know, we talk about those in the book, I call them the clout killers, but then also going, okay, so what do we do with that? Like, how do we really cultivate our influence? How do we cultivate our clout in such a way that we can allow that sphere of influence that we’ve been given to impact others, to really allow that to thrive and for that to shine? So that’s the heart and the spirit behind the book.

Host
And the seven clout killers, as you call them, are really transformational, and they’re very real, and they’re things that leaders don’t even like to admit, that they struggle with.

Jenni Catron
Yeah, yeah, I think you don’t, and that’s the truth. And it’s really the thing that stuck out with all of the clout killers, for me, is, you know, what are the things that I don’t want to admit are there? But we all know that when we just keep stuffing something we we really aren’t dealing with it. It’s, it’s, it’s affecting us, whether we’re recognizing it or not. And so what I found is I was kind of doing my research for the book, and, you know, my personal stories, stories from my leadership, other leaders that I kind of studied, I discovered that this fear issue was really almost kind of the root. I call it the front runner of all the clout killers. It’s like fear triggers all these other things. So I fear that I’m not enough. So I deal with jealousy if you’re not having enough. So I’m deal with scarcity. I fear that I’m not good enough. So I live with insecurity. Like you see how just these fear, this fear of different things, impacts our influence and our our leadership in different ways. So it’s really the when I boiled down like anything, like I’m maybe not engaging, there’s usually some fear behind it, like, I fear chaos, so I grapple for control. And I think a lot of us as leaders, you know, we like to kind of get a good handle on our situations, and like to be able to control our world. And really, that’s the fear of chaos, you know. So just so many of these different issues, there’s just kind of an underlying fear all the time of, Am I enough, you know, and and I think when we kind of just are willing to acknowledge that, then we position ourselves to be able to grow from it and learn from it. You know, fear kind of impacts you in different ways. Sometimes it causes us to hide, sometimes it causes us to isolate ourselves and kind of close ourselves off, and then sometimes it just paralyzes us, which, I think for a lot of us as leaders, it just paralyzes us, you know, I think you’ve got to exchange that fear for what’s true, you know? And I think there’s a, there’s an old quote, I don’t know that I actually used it in the book, but you know, what’s the, what’s the stat of how, how many of the fears we we have actually don’t happen, right? Like you, we’ve all heard of that. Of you know, how many fears that we have actually don’t happen. And the thing that struck up, stuck out to me when I was studying this and actually looking at some scripture for just biblical foundation for this, was that, you know, I think a lot of times we want to, we want to believe that we just are going to overcome fear and. We’re never going to face fear. And over and over in Scripture, like when the biblical characters would face fear, God would he would say, Do not fear. But he didn’t say, Do not fear because being fearful is stupid. He said, Do not fear because he had a response for this. He had a way he was going to handle this, that he was there. He was the great reward I’m with you. Like over and over, when a leader was dealing with fear, God was responding with how he was there to help lead them through that. And so I think you know, when we’re confronting fear, so if you’re a person to say, you know, there’s a lot of biblical truth that we can kind of hold on to, to suggest that God is with us through this. And you know, even if you’re not a person of faith, there’s still truth behind things that sometimes we allow those fears to convince us of. You know, we kind of just spin off into all the worst case scenarios. And when you stop and you go, Okay, what’s the worst thing that’s going to happen? What’s the real truth of if the worst thing happened? What’s What does that mean? So it’s kind of that idea of exchanging that fear for just what’s true, just getting rational for a minute. Because what does fear do? It makes us irrational. You know, most of the time.

Host
So now the next one is a comparison. And this one, I think, is so acute. Why is it a clout killer?

Jenni Catron
Yeah, you know. And I think comparison, it’s almost natural, you know, like we are kind of wired to just compare everything from the time we’re born like our we, you know, we are. We get the Growth Percentile chart, things you know that tell us how we’re stacking up to the rest of, you know, kids in our age group. And I think our culture just conditions us to compare ourselves to everyone else. But the danger in that is that, and this is kind of the spirit of this whole book. The danger in that is that I believe that God has given us, like, this unique sphere of influence, this unique set of gifts, talents, experiences and opportunities that no one else has your specific like, mix of those things, right? And so when we compare, you know, I’m not ever going to be you. I’m not ever going to be able to lead the way you lead to, you know, encourage people the way you encourage people to inspire people like I’m not wired exactly like you. We might have some things that overlap. We have a lot of things that we enjoy, but if I try to be you, that I’m going to sabotage the thing that makes me me. And so, you know, I think that comparison thing, I think we’re just so naturally wired by society to give into it, that we don’t even realize that we’re doing it. And what, what I feel like we do on that is we miss really cultivating and developing the the influence we have. You know, in trying to mimic somebody else, we actually sabotage our own growth.

Host
What’s the difference between comparison and jealousy? Because those two kind of seem to maybe dovetail or be related.

Jenni Catron
Yeah they do kind of dovetail. And I think, you know, comparison is I can look at what somebody else is doing, and I can, like, try to be that jealousy, like it, like it gets to that icky place where I, you know, now I’m like, I’m really, like, striving and working towards, you know, being jealous or envious of what somebody else is doing. So it really kind of makes it about trying to almost sabotage the other person. Like jealousy kind of takes that nasty twist of, you know, I say it’s kind of like a cancer that eats, eats away at everything that’s good in our relationship. So jealousy takes that to Okay, now you’re my enemy, because I’m jealous of what you’ve accomplished. Now it’s not that I’ve just compared myself and I’ve tried to mimic you now. It’s that, oh, you’re now my enemy, because I want to be like you, and I see where our gaps are different, and so I’m going to start being jealous of that, and it’s going to start eroding the relationship component. You start that comparison, and then it turns into and I, at one point, I talk about jealousy is kind of the irrational fear of losing something or someone valuable to you, you know. So it’s that all of a sudden it becomes a competition, you know, and it becomes and that’s where fear kind of mixes into the whole equation. And, yeah, jealousy just goes to kind of that ugly place of, now you’re my enemy rather than somebody I’m celebrating because of you stewarding your God given influence.

Host
So scarcity is the fourth one?

Jenni Catron
Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, this was one of the ones that kind of snuck up on me and surprised me as a leader. And I think, you know, I grew up kind of in a, you know, just, uh, you know, lower middle class family. So we had, you know, we struggled to make ends meet some days, you know, sure. And but in that there were some good things that I learned in just, you know, being frugal and making sure I manage my money well. And, you know, so there were certainly some really good principles that came from that. But what it did is it taught me to kind of hoard a little bit more than normal, and not just resources. It kind of, you know, it just was this overarching tendency to just be scarce with everything, because there’s kind of this underlying fear that there’s not enough, you know. So when you grow up, and so a lot of us, I think, come by that scarcity mentality honestly, you know, maybe so I didn’t I grew up in a home that didn’t have just a lot of resources. So I can be scarce with resources, but maybe somebody grew up in a home where there wasn’t a lot of love given. Our show. And so you, you, you, you don’t even realize it, because it’s just the culture you came from. But you can hoard, you know, just a affirmation and really loving and serving others well. And so I think, you know, we have to kind of look at that and go, is there a place in my leadership where I have a tendency to hoard? So another one where I think this shows up a lot is, you know, if you’re a leader in your position for influence, you know, are you taking all of those opportunities for the spotlight, or, you know, to bring the idea to the table and or are you, you know, really empowering other staff to be the ones to share that or to bring that up, or to to get the spotlight, or, you know, so I think that’s where you see it happen a lot in leadership, is that we’re not quick to give the praise or the the attention to other leaders around us.

Host
And the next one is insecurity. And these are definitely connected.

Jenni Catron
Yeah, you know. And this is the one that none of us want to admit, right? It’s there, and it’s, you know, that it, and I describe it as a perpetual lack of confidence, you know. And I think we can all relate to that. But the problem is, when we kind of live in that perpetual lack of confidence, it is impacting everyone else around us. And so, you know, I think you’ve got to be willing to identify that and realize where insecurity is kind of holding you back from living out, you know, living out your influence in a healthy in a healthy way. It’s a biggie, and it can show up a lot of different ways, you know. And I think we cover it up in a lot of ways.

Host
So pride, pride is the sixth. So we’ve got fear, comparison, jealousy, scarcity, insecurity. And I know that pride is often a sign of people who are covering up something else.

Jenni Catron
Yep. In the book talking about pride, you know, the like the Webster’s definition is in inordinate self esteem, or excessive confidence in oneself. And when I started to unpack this and look at other leaders and myself, and you know, see where pride shows up, it’s really the illusion of excessive self esteem, you know. So that goes back to that insecurity piece of that. You know, as leaders, rarely are we just really that prideful. We’re actually lacking some self esteem, and so we’re trying to project that we have something that we don’t actually have. So it’s kind of like pride and insecurity end up this big ball of mess where prides trying to cover up, it just all becomes one big jumbled mess that we’re trying to untangle.

Host
That’s huge. Well, the last one is control.

Jenni Catron
That’s a funny one, because as leaders, we’re, we’re so driven, right? And, you know, we have such a drive that kind of pushes us and we and we step into, you know, moments where leadership is necessary. So we are kind of known for being the ones to take control when control is me, you know, when that’s necessary. But there’s kind of a dark side to it, where, when it’s, you know, there’s a lot of conversations about the importance of servant leadership, and that as leaders, we have to recognize that it’s our job to help others shine. And so when you see control creeping in, it’s when you’re really longing for power, rather than like longing for influence. And I think that’s a real distinction that’s important in that, you know, this longing for power is an indicator that we’re not content with the influence we’re given. So if we’re trying to, you know, manufacture control of a situation I often talk about like the idea of, you know, we’ve been given this influence, our leadership, our clout, and it’s kind of placed in our hands as this thing we’re responsible to, kind of care, take, to steward. But I’m one of those people who loves control. So what do I do? I kind of curl my fingers around it, and I kind of put a death grip on it and try to manipulate and control everything, you know, and what happens? You’re squeezing the life out of it rather than letting it grow and develop. And so I think we have to look for that tension in ourself as leaders. Is, when am I, you know, being responsible for the influence I have and I’m gently, kind of blood, guiding it and directing it, or when am I trying to, like, manipulate it and control it? And I mean, you’re going to be the best Gage for yourself on when you’re doing those things and when it’s it’s moving to control rather than influence, if that makes sense. But there’s a real dance there, because as leaders, we do need to step up and actually lead. But that can cross the line into, you know, controlling, obsessive control if we’re not careful.

Host
Wow. Well, Jenni Catron, folks, you can check her out. Jennicatron.com, Jenni, thank you for being with us. Thank you for your wisdom. Thank you for what you do as a leader. And we wish you all the best.

Jenni Catron
Thank you so much. It was wonderful to talk this through with you, and I appreciate the conversation. Thank you.