Body of Work, with Pamela Slim – Episode 44 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

Author, speaker, and certification expert Pamela Slim addresses the “new world of work”, including what makes it so unpredictable, what is considered THE meta skill throughout all of history, and how to talk to our kids about what we do professionally.

About Pamela:

Pamela Slim is an author, business coach and the co-founder with her husband Darryl of the K’é Community Lab in Mesa, Arizona.

A former corporate director of training and development at Barclays Global Investors, Pam focused her first decade in business as a management consultant, working with large companies such as HP, Charles Schwab, 3Com, Chevron and Cisco Systems.

Since 2005, Pam has advised thousands of entrepreneurs as well as companies serving the small business market such as Keap, Progressive Insurance, Constant Contact and Prezi. Pam partnered with author Susan Cain to build and launch the Quiet Revolution.

Pam has written three books: Escape from Cubicle Nation (named Best Small Business and Entrepreneur book of 2009 from Porchlight Books), Body of Work (2014 with Penguin Portfolio) and her latest The Widest Net (2021 with McGraw Hill, named Best Marketing & Sales Book of 2021 by Porchlight Books).

In 2016, Pam and her husband Darryl co-founded the K’é Community Lab in Mesa, Arizona, a grassroots, community-space for equity-centered small business economic acceleration. 

Pam is frequently quoted as a business expert in press such as The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, BusinessWeek, Forbes, Entrepreneur, Information Week, Money Magazine and Psychology Today.

Learn more at PamelaSlim.com.

The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

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(Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

Host
One of the nicest people in the world, Pamela Slim. And if you’ve been in the world of vlogs and social media for any amount of time, surely you know Pamela. She is an award winning author, coach, speaker, and has kind of an interesting story. And her book is called Body of Work, and it gives sort of a fresh perspective on the skills required in the new world of work, from both corporate to nonprofit to small business to salespeople to all the above. Pamela, thanks for being on the show.

Pamela Slim
Well, thank you so much for having me. I am delighted to be here.

Host
So you say that the quote, unquote world of work is no longer predictable.

Pamela Slim
Absolutely. I know salespeople, of all people in the world know this, because often sales folks are the ones that are right there, you know, talking to customers and working on a deal for a long time and having it fall through at the last minute, because, you know, your key contact gets laid off or redeployed somewhere else. And I I’ve been for about the past 20 years working, working in the world of business, always on the human side. And as early as the 90s, I was noticing trends as we turned to see more waves of layoffs and reorganizations. But I think things really started to pick up steam, especially in 2008 when we all experienced a huge economic catastrophe, that that really rallied around the globe. And what was interesting to me, as somebody who has worked in and studied the world of work for so long, is it felt like there was something that kind of permanently etched reality in all of our minds, which said even huge institutions that we thought would never fail can fail, and that which we consider to be even a solid, respectable career is not really anything that we can count on. So there’s a part of the message, I think, that is just acknowledging the reality. I’ve always been a very pragmatic optimist, where I’d like to look at the reality and say truly, as individual business owners, we can’t count on the market staying the same, as we’ve seen through a number of different economic downturns. As corporate employees, we can’t count on our organization to stay the same, or our customer base or positions, but when we know that, then we can do specific things to actually make ourselves indispensable and highly employable, whether we’re redeployed within our own organizations when change does happen, or to also be a person if you do end up being laid off, that you’re highly flexible and you can quickly get another job or have other kinds of business opportunities. And I always say it’s by force or by choice. I’ve being a somebody who’s been a coach for a long time. I work with a lot of people who are choosing to make a career transition or choosing to start a business, or to, you know, move up in an organization. But I think given the, you know, the the unstable nature of the economy and of organizations, more and more people will have that path, and so we really do need a new way of looking at our careers. That was really the driving force behind writing body of work is I found I’ve worked in just about every work mode you can imagine. I’ve been in the nonprofit sector. I’ve, you know, run a nonprofit as a volunteer. I worked in corporate I’ve been an entrepreneur, I’ve been a stay at home mom, and, you know, I find that really the way that we can actually, you know, create a strong sense of always being employable is by the narrative that we tell. And if we’re looking at the general narrative, which is, have you been a stable person, which means that you’ve been in one organization for a long time now? Again, even if you want to do that, it’s not necessarily possible, so you need to constantly be retelling the story about who you are and what your strengths are and what valuable things that you’ve contributed. The really good side to this equation is as one side of the new world of work is instability, the other side is an amazing opportunity that we have for doing all kinds of different work and on the personal branding side, we have so many tools now that allow us to tell our stories in compelling ways, through things like blogs or social media, our own websites, I think we have a lot more capacity to create a cohesive story about ourselves than we ever did in the past.

Host
Salespeople are kind of classically known for switching companies. What is your opinion on that? Do you think it’s negative to be switching all the time?

Pamela Slim
Yeah, I think there’s two things. The first is, for my definition of body of work, it’s really as you look at the course of your life, what are all the things that you really want to create, contribute, affect and impact? That’s the one decision that. Would make is really what is that body of work that you want to create based on things that are really important to you, using your skills and your strengths and so with that as a definition, I don’t just mean concrete things, like helping to build organizations through sales, which is a hugely important skill set, which salespeople have, but it’s also in what are the intangible ways in which you affect the world? How are you as a parent, as a community member, as a spouse, you know, what are you really contributing? What’s your emotional wake that you leave as you really walk through the world? And is it something that you feel proud of and that you really leave as a legacy? So when you think about it from that perspective, to move around or not move around to me, it’s really addressed by why. And sometimes you can, you can be pursuing what seems to be the next great opportunity. I really was fortunate. I spent about three years with a client who had a sales training business. I’ve worked with hundreds and hundreds of salespeople who I think happened to me some of the most like interesting, flexible, positive people. You know, I really like it. I love the skill set. I love the fact that the skill set is really flexible, and that you do have to get enthusiastic and care about what you’re doing, really infuse yourself in in a culture, in a company, in order to be able to really sell effectively. And so it is the kind of skill set of any I think that are out there that can be, you know, really effective to be moving in different places. But my question would be, are you just jumping to what seems to be the next great, great opportunity because of maybe a financial outcome, or are you conscious about what it is that you want to create? So for example, you might be somebody who works in tech who gets really excited about helping early stage entrepreneurs create a solid foundation for their business and to get sales moving in the early stage. So in that case, maybe you’re just working for an organization to get them up to that stage, develop the capacity of the internal folks to sell more effectively and hire other people, and then you’re ready to go on to the next challenge, and especially if you would tie that particular technology to one that you’re passionate about, right? The same thing could be true where you might be selling a service that you’re really passionate about, some kind of health related service or artistic pursuit. I think that’s the beautiful thing. Is, with a sales, you know, a selling skill set, then you can really learn how to sell in many different industries to many different people, but from an individual career perspective, I would say, are you giving yourself enough time in each role to really be building that which you want to build? And there’s always, you always have the capacity, I think, to tell a compelling story. But the reality is, you know in terms of how you might sell yourself to somebody, or you might explain your history and how it is that you’ve moved through many different positions. I think the important thing to remember is that your work really does speak for you. So if you truly have had integrity in your roles, you’ve done a great job, you’ve developed really powerful relationships, and you move on. That’s the kind of enduring legacy that your work really speaks for and that can’t be spun. That’s what other people are going to be talking about. You know, when, when they talk about you, and it’s in today’s job environment, I think that is how people get jobs. Is based on your reputation of what you’ve actually built and done.

Host
Is it fair to say that, you know, like body of work is it’s kind it’s almost like personal branding?

Pamela Slim
That is exactly right. I mean, the first piece is, what actually are you creating, right? What? How are you being conscious about that work that you actually want to do in the world? What organizations do you want to support? You know? What? What problems do you want to solve? And then you do that through your skills and strengths. But yes, the way that you help people understand who you are and what you do is, by the story you tell. It is the meta skill of the 21st century, which, by the way, has always been the meta skill, right? Storytelling is the way that that we all, we all relate to each other, and we have since the very, you know, early days. And the good thing is, that’s actually what good salespeople understand, right? But I think there’s two parts to the story. There’s, what is the story you’re telling yourself? Are you saying, oh my gosh, you know, my work history sounds really sketchy. I’m desperate. I need to get a job, oh my gosh, in which case it’s hard then to create a compelling, authentic story to somebody else, right? Versus where you say, I, you know, I may not have had a perfect past. Everybody has challenges, you know, in your life and your work, but this is the meaning that I’ve really gotten from it, and these are the kinds of projects that I’ve really thought about that I want to contribute to. And here’s why my specific skills fit. And so yes, that is personal branding. I think the thing I want to underline is it’s really based on deep integrity with yourself and with the work that you want to do, and then that just has natural positive impacts in terms of the opportunities that open up for you. And I think people buy for different reasons. We’re wired a little bit differently. Some folks, very much make decisions based on personal relationships and how they feel if they trust somebody. A lot of other folks. Folks will make a decision that is based on all kinds of research and data or, you know, individual and institutional decisions, but I think a huge overriding factor is the kind of relationship and trust that you build and in organizations. I’ve seen this so much when I used to consult in organizations, they’re going through as much change in tumultuousness as the outside market. And it’s amazing what can happen if you have a new manager come in, or a VP, or a change in business strategy, you have to sell yourself all over again, you know, sometimes, sometimes the same people, when everybody’s looking like, wait a minute, you know, our whole go to market strategy changed. And therefore, you know, does Pam really have what it takes? Can I know she’s been really successful in this market, but you know, how can she really compete in this other kind of market? Does she have the skills to do it if you’ve been conscious about it, not just the story you’re telling, but also relationships that you’re building, ways that you’re weaving in other kinds of activities? You know, I think a lot of folks forget that every single part of your life is really part of part of your body of work, so sometimes significant activities that you do outside, people may not be aware of the fact that you’re a huge volunteer, you know, you’re a member of your community, or you’re an amazing parent, and you, you know, have a child with special needs, and you put in, like, lots of extra effort and energy. All those kinds of things are really an important part of the story that you can tell, and it’s really about solidifying confidence and really helping to go through a transition in a positive way. I was working on a consulting project, and I was laughing with my client. We had new folks come in that were hired, and even though, kind of, the senior person in the project was one who I had great trust with, he really wanted to defer to folks who were coming in on the project to make sure that, you know, they related to me. And we were laughing, because he’s like, Oh, I saw how you started to work, you know, how you started you were sending emails and, you know, having conversations with them, and introducing yourself in a way so that they really knew who you were. And he was laughing because he knows me, and he knows that that’s just part of what you have to do is you’re going through a transition. You can’t rely on your past performance, you can’t rely on relationships that you’ve had, because all of those can change, and especially if business strategy changes.

Host
In the book, you have this great line you say, the quality of your life in business is directly related to the quality of your stories.

Pamela Slim
Yeah, I really believe it passionately, because being so tuned into, you know, to the workplace, and especially folks that might be out of work or looking for new opportunities, it’s easy sometimes to look at somebody who gets an opportunity and say, oh, man, you know, that wasn’t fair. You know, that person’s lucky, or they had this background, or come from this place, and therefore they got the job. And what I always know, because I’ve just watched it for so long and coach so many people around it is somebody who actually got the opportunity, took the time to really research and understand what were the needs of that person, who they were wanting to make a sale to right kind of, again, an internal sale for an opportunity. And it’s funny, it’s talk about, you know, when you talk about branding, can be a touching point when you talk about selling, you know, if you start to talk about things like parenting or, you know, getting a spouse, you know, some of the underlying skills of using the good light side of the Force skills that we have right are about deeply understanding and connecting with somebody feeling good enough about yourself. When you meet that person who you’re just think is wonderful, who would be a great life partner. You don’t really knock yourself, you know, out of the running by saying, oh my gosh, but you know, I’m not that good a person, and why would they ever date me? And I’m not good enough. I’m not smart enough. You know, people don’t like me. That’s that internal story sometimes that becomes a driving narrative for our life, and it ends up really leaking out into also how it is that we tell a story about ourselves moving forward. And so I just want to clarify again, by story, I don’t mean making up things to just bamboozle everybody. It’s actually telling a clear, compelling story that you deeply believe about yourself, but that’s based on your reflection about that work in the world that you want to do, and based on also about being the kind of person that you want to be in the world. You know, what kind of parent do you want to be? What are the stories that you tell your kids? What are the stories that you tell your kids about what work is? I’m always fascinated by people who spend all their time when they get home saying how terrible it is, and the office was horrible and the commute was bad. And I’m thinking, man, what kind of a story are your kids going to have about what working means? How excited are they going to be to be joining the world of work? If that’s what you hear, I was blessed that I had a dad who’s still at 79 years old as a passionate photographer. Every time I heard him talk about work, it was with excitement for his craft, and I’m so thankful to him for telling that kind of story about work, because it showed me that you can love what you do, and so I’ve always pursued work that really lit me up.

Host
Yeah, I mean, that’s those are, those are powerful questions to think of as powerful. How do we become better storytellers?

Pamela Slim
I think one it, one thing it could do is, is to read and whatever genre of books that you enjoy, if it’s fiction or even non. Fiction, pay attention to what people are actually doing as they’re narrating, creating a great story. The ultimate resource for storytelling, I think, is Nancy Duarte book Resonate, fantastic book as a resource for really understanding. How can you tell a compelling story when you’re trying to get somebody to change, which is what you do in a selling in a sales environment, right? And Nancy studied all kinds of the great speeches of all time, and really noted through extensive research about a certain pattern and a structure to a story that can be very effective and persuasive. So I think there’s things like that where you can, you know, get resources like that, I find the arts are one that also really contribute to you getting excited about a great story. So if you can go to a great play, or, you know, see a really wonderful movie, you start to pay attention to, you know, how did that grab me? And why was that exciting? Or, Why did I get scared at that moment, you know, and, and those, I think, can be things that are that are really useful, again, from a sales perspective, I think that is a skill that so many folks need to have. And really one of the fundamental underlying skills, I think, of great storytelling, is where you really do think about who your audience is, and really make sure that you spend a lot of time understanding what is the nature of your organization that you’re selling into. What are the personal things that are really driving folks who you’re having conversations with, so that when you choose what it is that you want to talk to them about, or present to them, or give certain examples, but it’s very related to what their actual experience is, and I think that’s something that can only strengthen what it is you do on the sales side.

Host
I love it. Well, Pamela, thank you so much. This has just been awesome. And thank you for being on the show.

Pamela Slim
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.