Connection Over Perfection, with Matt Abrahams – Episode 461 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

Matt Abrahams, host of the Think Fast, Talk Smart business show from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, as well as an acclaimed Strategic Communication lecturer, and author of the new book Think Faster, Talk Smarter, explains why his name, in some way, led to his life’s work, and shares the secrets to spontaneous speaking, the construction of conversation, speaking up without freaking out, controlling your actual BODY during discussion, how to get out of a conversation you DON’T want to be in and how to answer a question you don’t have the answer to, listening to what’s NOT said, daring to be dull and maximizing your mediocrity, finding the third side of a coin, and the role of martial arts in all of this.

About Matt:

Matt Abrahams is a leading expert in communication with decades of experience as an educator, author, podcast host, and coach. As a Lecturer in Organizational Behavior at Stanford University’s Graduate School of Business, he teaches popular classes in strategic communication and effective virtual presenting. He received Stanford GSB’s Alumni Teaching Award in recognition of his teaching students around the world. Outside of the classroom, Matt is a sought-after keynote speaker and communication consultant. He has helped countless presenters improve and hone their communication, including some who have delivered IPO road shows as well as Nobel Prize, TED, and World Economic Forum presentations. He also consults for the United Nations’ Secretary General’s Strategic Planning and Communication Office. His online talks garner millions of views and he hosts the popular, award-winning podcast Think Fast, Talk Smart The Podcast. His new book Think Faster, Talk Smarter: How to Speak Successfully When You’re Put on the Spot provides tangible, actionable skills to help even the most anxious of speakers succeed when speaking spontaneously, such as navigating Q&A sessions, shining in job interviews, providing effective feedback, making small talk, fixing faux pas, persuading others. His previous book Speaking Up without Freaking Out: 50 Techniques for Confident and Compelling Presenting has helped thousands of people manage speaking anxiety and present more confidently and authentically.

Learn more at MattAbrahams.com.

The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

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(Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

Stephanie Maas
Well, thank you for being here. We’re super excited to have you. Yes, there is a lot that I want to talk about. But let me just start kind of bigger picture and then we’ll come down a little bit. So in reading a little bit about your background, I want to start with something about your name being later in the alphabet that has led to your life’s work.

Matt Abrahams
Yeah, not later in the alphabet earlier in the alphabet. So with the last name, Abraham’s A B, I always went first in school, I always knew where I would sit, I always know who was going first. I was a teacher, a high school teacher for a couple years. And I understand that it for high school and elementary school teachers, it’s really easy just to organize your life alphabetically. But what that meant is I was always dealing with spontaneous speaking, and my latest work is really all about how to be a better spontaneous speaker. And it’s something that I’ve been developing some because of my last name. And some because of circumstances I found myself in, really did initiate this interest in this notion of how do we speak better in the moment? And if you think about it, most of our communication is spontaneous. It’s not planned. It’s a somebody asks a question, ask for feedback, you’re making small talk. And so we need to learn how to do this better. So we can be more effective in these circumstances.

Stephanie Maas
So you remember being called on Matt, you get to go first.

Matt Abrahams
Oh even more than that, it’s like, Okay, we just read The Scarlet Letter, your turn to tell me what you think about whoever the main character was? And I yeah, I was often called on first to answer questions much to the relief of my fellow students, they were actually grateful, because by the time it got to them, they had time to think and plan.

Stephanie Maas
So what do you say like, how do you, I would imagine, but please educate us, when you’re in spontaneous conversation, there is the internal dialogue that you have to deal with at the exact same time as getting prepared to speak and attempting to not sound like an idiot, which I do enough for everybody. So tell me about that. How do you deal with that?

Matt Abrahams
Well, I’m certainly happy to share I mean, my whole goal is just to help people do better in any communication circumstance, it boils down to two things, it boils down to mindset and messaging. So we have to get our mindset and approach aligned with our goals of speaking in the moment. So first, we have to manage anxiety, anxiety looms large in all communication, but especially in spontaneous speaking. And then we have to reframe how we see this, first and foremost, the goal we have many of us, when we’re put on the spot, we want to do our job, right, we want to give the best answer, we want to give great feedback, we want to be the most interesting person in small talk. And that puts a tremendous amount of pressure on ourselves and makes it actually less likely we will achieve those goals. So we have to switch from perfection to connection, just have the goal be connecting and conveying the information you need rather than doing it right. And by the way, there is no right way to communicate. there better ways in worse ways. So the first thing we have to reframe is our goal. The second thing we have to reframe is the whole interaction. Many of us see the spontaneous speaking situations as threatening as something we have to defend against. When somebody asks us a question, we feel challenged when somebody asks for feedback, we feel put on the spot. And yet we need to reframe those as opportunities. It’s an opportunity to extend to expand to collaborate. So by reframing the goal, and just the whole experience, we can do better. And then we have to think about messaging. So it’s not just mindset, it’s also messaging. messaging in the moment, what can really help us is leveraging a structure a structure provides a roadmap, but directionality many of us when we’re put on the spot, we just blather we just list information, itemized different things, and our brains are not wired for itemized information structure really helps. To give you an example of a structure if you’ve ever watched a television ad problem solution benefit is how that ad is most likely been constructed, there’s a problem or challenge here’s a way of solving it through the product or service and then here’s the benefit. That’s what a structure does. It’s a logical connection of ideas. So by focusing on mindset and focusing on messaging we can actually manage these situations very effectively and be not only less stressed but more connected in the process.

Stephanie Maas
Okay, so what is a good structure?

Matt Abrahams
Oh, there’s so many good structures don’t get me started problem solution benefit as I mentioned comparison contrast conclusion past present future my favorite structure in the whole world is three simple questions. What So what now what you start with the What the What is your idea your feedback, your update your product or service? The so what is why is it important to somebody you’re speaking to what value does it bring? And then the now what is what comes next? So by leveraging a structure like this, or many others, the whole second part of my my new book is all about structures for different circumstances, you can actually do better so I encourage people To find structures that work from them, and then leverage it. Now I want to take a quick timeout. I just used what So what now what? To answer that question, I told you what the best structure was, I told you why they’re important. And I encourage everybody to find one and use it. So it’s just a simple, easy way to package up information for me as a communicator. But it hopefully helps you as a listener, understand it, and then act on it better. That’s the power of structure.

Stephanie Maas
Well done. Well done, touche.

Matt Abrahams
Thank you. Thank you. I scored a point. Good.

Stephanie Maas
Okay, so you talk a little bit about some science based strategies to manage the anxiety. I think for a lot of us, that’s a big part of it, that if we could just quiet that we actually can communicate relatively well. So give me a couple of thoughts on when what’s between your ears goes nuts and answering a question. How do you get that to chill out?

Matt Abrahams
Yeah, it’s not just what goes on between the ears. It’s what’s goes on in your body as well. So in managing anxiety around speaking, you really again have to take a two pronged approach. Everything comes in twos here, you have to manage symptoms and sources. Symptoms are the things that we physiologically experience what happens in our body, our heart rate beat faster, we might get shaky. For me, I turn red and I blush what happens for you, Stephanie, when you get nervous and speaking situations?

Stephanie Maas
I don’t know if I actually turn red, but I feel like I’m turning red.

Matt Abrahams
Yeah, we feel that that getting hotter? Yes, absolutely. These are very normal and natural reaction symptoms. And then there are sources that we can deal with as well. Let’s start with the symptoms. There are many things we can do. My first book was called speaking up without freaking out and there were 50 techniques based on academic research that can help us feel better. Let me give you just a few. One is to take deep belly breaths. Deep breathing tends to work for most people by taking a deep inhalation filling your lower abdomen. If you’ve ever done yoga or tai chi, it’s that deep breathing. And then the key is the exhalation. You want your exhale to be longer than your inhale. And the longer your exhale is the more impact you have. So just taking two or three deep breaths like this slows down your heart rate slows down your speaking rate stops some of the shakiness and allows your voice to be deep and resonant when we get nervous, we breathe shallow and our voices change if you get shaky besides deep breathing big broad movements, moving your body forward, if you’re physically in front of people standing that allows that adrenaline which is causing the shakiness to dissipate. And if you’re like me and you turning red or feeling hot, that’s the result of your heart beating faster, your body tensing up, it’s like you’re exercising your blood pressure is going up. And what we need to do is cool ourselves down. And a great way to do that is hold something cold in the palms of your hand, the palms of your hand or thermo regulators for your body. On a cold morning, I am certain you’ve held a warm cup of tea or coffee and felt it warm you up just by holding it, we can do the reverse by holding a cold bottle of water and it causes you to sweat less blush less. So those are some things we can do for symptoms. Sources are the things that initiate or exacerbate our anxiety, we’ve talked about some of that reframing we can do in terms of connection over perfection, seeing it as an opportunity. A good one also is many of us are made nervous by the goal that we are trying to achieve. When you’re speaking you have a goal my students want to get a good grade, the entrepreneurs, I coach want to get funding, you might have a great idea you want people to adopt, and we’re nervous that we won’t achieve it. So that means we’re afraid or being made afraid of something that is in the future. And the best way to short circuit that is to become in the present. So you can do something physical, you can listen to a song or a playlist like athletes do, you can start at 100 and count backwards by a challenging number like seven teams, there’s a lot you can do to bring yourself in the present moment. So by managing symptoms and sources, we can actually tame that anxiety beast and be more comfortable speaking planned or spontaneously.

Stephanie Maas
So you are quoted as saying “daring to be dull”?

Matt Abrahams
Yes. So this goes back to that notion that we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to do our communication, right. So I borrow an idea from the world of improvisation. When I did the research I did into speaking spontaneously, I looked across many fields, psychology, anthropology, neuroscience, and even improvisation. And in it, we probably had these wonderful sayings dare to be dull. I’ve actually turbocharged that and encourage people to maximize their mediocrity. By striving just to get it done, rather than to do it perfectly. You actually free up more cognitive bandwidth to focus on what you’re doing. Think of it this way. If I am constantly judging and evaluating everything I say, I have less bandwidth to focus on what I’m saying. And this is why memorizing is so bad for us. When we memorize we’ve created the right way to Say it. And as I’m speaking, I’m constantly comparing back and forth. And that means I have less energy to focus directly on the communication that I’m trying to do so daring to be dull maximizing mediocrity is all about focusing on the audience, we’re speaking to that connection, and letting go of that perfection. So we’re dialing down the volume on how we’re internally focused. And we’re actually increasing the volume on how we’re externally focused. Okay, there’s another phrase in improv that I think is so powerful for many of us when it comes to spontaneous speaking, which is, do what needs to be done nothing more, nothing less. Many of us get in our heads and say, How do I answer this? Right? How do I not offend somebody? So sometimes daring to be dulled? Doing what needs to be done is all you need to do? And that helps you be effective in that moment.

Stephanie Maas
Love it. Okay. How do you get out of a conversation that you don’t want to be in?

Matt Abrahams
Uh huh. Yes. So that can be very challenging. So a lot of the one of the main areas I talked about in the second part of the book is small talk. And small talk is one of these things where we often find ourselves in conversations that we don’t want to be part of, and we need to get out of them. So I have my podcast, think fast talk smart had the pleasure of interviewing someone named Rachel Greenwald, Rachel is fascinating. She is an academic and a professional matchmaker, and she has wonderful advice. And she taught me what I call her what she calls and what I use is the white flag approach. And it doesn’t mean surrender, it doesn’t mean you’re in a situation a conversation, you’d want to be in a new surrender. Rather, in auto racing, they signaled the last lap by waving the white flag, it tells all the drivers that we’re about to end the race. In conversation, you can exit politely by simply waving the white flag, simply say in a few minutes, I want to go talk to somebody over there. But before I go in, you ask another question, or you share some information with them about something they said. So you continue the conversation just a little bit longer. And then you excuse yourself now, because you’ve previewed that you’re excusing yourself, nobody’s surprised, there’s less awkwardness, it gives the other person or people a chance to figure out what they’re going to do. So they’re not just left there, in a strange way. And it gets us away from the exiting of most awkward conversations that we do, which is through biology, I’m hungry, I’m thirsty, I have to go to the bathroom. So instead, by waving the white flag, it’s just much easier. It’s much more graceful. And I use it all the time. And it works.

Stephanie Maas
Okay, second part of that, how do you answer a question that you don’t have any answer for?

Matt Abrahams
Yes. And many of us find ourselves in these situations. So you say I don’t know. Right? So when somebody says, you know, ask you a question, and you don’t know the answer, you say, I don’t know. But you immediately follow it up with what you’re going to do to find the answer out and give a timeframe for when you will get back to them. And if you have a hunch or an inkling as to what the answer might be, you can say that so I might say something like, I don’t know that answer. I’m gonna go talk to Stephanie, and I’m gonna get back to you within 24 hours. My hunch is the answer is this. Now many of us feel that when we don’t know an answer, that that’s her rific. That that’s awful. In fact, the expectation that you know, everything is pretty strange, right? It’s not reasonable. Also, many of us feel that we lose credibility. In those moments, we don’t know answers. There’s some preliminary research that says, actually saying you don’t know, saying how you’re going to find out and then actually following up bolsters your credibility as much if not more than when you had you initially answered the question. Now, obviously, you don’t use this is a ploy. And purposely do this to boost your credibility. But we worry that it’s going to put us at a disadvantage. And in fact, by demonstrating tenacity, by demonstrating that you have the wherewithal to figure out and find out information that actually helps you in these circumstances. So we need to let go of that notion that we need to know everything. Now, obviously, if people are asking lots of questions, and you don’t know many of the answers, that’s a different situation, one where there’s probably a mismatch between your expertise and the demands of the circumstance. So saying, I don’t know is not the end of the world. And it may actually be okay and helpful.

Stephanie Maas
Super helpful. Okay, negative feedback. It’s a good way when you know, and again, I’m not talking about being mean, or mean spirited, or anything with Mal intent, but constructive, but you know, will be received as negative feedback.

Matt Abrahams
Yes. So first and foremost, I am a disciple of Kim Scott, and radical candor. I think her work is fantastic. Kim has a friend, she’s actually a neighbor. And so that approach that feedback is something that can be beneficial and, and is something that needs to be given constantly, not just constructive feedback, but positive feedback, neutral feedback. And in giving feedback all the time. Any one instance of constructive feedback is perceived very differently than if there’s no feedback and then all of a sudden, constructive feedback. I see constructive Negative feedback as an opportunity to problem solve, and when you reframe it as such, it changes the way you approach the whole thing. Now, certainly there are things that people do that need to be stopped right away, it’s inappropriate, it’s wrong, you’re not going to say, hey, hey, let’s have a conversation about No, you just have to stop it. But for most constructive feedback, it is in your best interest to collaborate with the person to actually achieve results. So first see it as an invitation to problem solves, which means you want to invite the person in rather than making them defensive. So it changes the tone in the language that you use. I have a structure that I love to use, or feedback, especially spontaneous feedback. It’s four eyes for eyes like glasses, it helps you see better, but each step starts with the letter I the first hidden information. It’s the objective reason I’m giving you the feedback. Imagine you’re a manager, and you have an employee who consistently shows up late and unprepared to meetings, I might start the feedback by saying this is now the third time you’ve been over five minutes late for the meeting. That’s information. It’s level setting. It’s here’s what the feedback is on. Its objective. Anybody attending the meeting would say, yep, that person’s late. And it’s the third time the second eye is impact. What does this mean for you, the giver of the feedback, and this is where we use I language, I feel, I think, I believe, when I use you language that sounds accusatory and likely makes you defensive. So I might say, I feel you’re not prioritizing this meeting the same way the rest of us are. The third eye is the invitation. I might ask it as a question, I might say, what can we do to help make sure you show up on time to the next meeting, that’s an invitation is formed as a question, I could make an invitation that is a declarative sentence, I’d like for you to attend the next meeting five minutes early. And then finally, the final lie. The fourth eye is implication, these are consequences, they can be positive or negative. If you show up on time to the next meeting, we’ll finish this project earlier and get a new, really cool one. Or I might say, if you don’t show up on time, next time, we might have to remove you from the team. So it’s information, impact, invitation, in implications. And if you remember, the four eyes, not only does it package over the feedback in a way the recipient can understand it. It also helps you as the giver to prioritize what you say, so that the feedback is clear. We have all been the recipient of feedback that’s vague, and we’re trying to figure out what do I do What was actually asked of me. So having it structured this way, as an invitation can help you and the recipient.

Stephanie Maas
I’m gonna go flip the coin a little bit. So we talk a lot about communication, as a society and as a culture, both professionally and personally. Or as individuals, there has been this like, tremendous ramp up over the last, you know, 20 years to really understanding the importance of communication. And now what I’m hearing a lot of is the word communication, saying, hey, it’s not just the communication. It’s the comprehension. Share with me the other side of the coin, the comprehension.

Matt Abrahams
Yeah, so communication is a two way street, right? There’s a very simple but famous model of communication. That’s called the transactional model. There’s a sender and a receiver. And the sender has to get the message to the receiver in a way that they understand it. So it’s not just about broadcasting. It’s about helping people comprehend. And there’s several things that help do that one we’ve already talked about. And that is the structuring of a message. Our brains are not wired to receive lists. We don’t remember lists. Well, bullets kill don’t kill people with bullet points. You know, in fact, I’d ask you, Stephanie, how many items do you need to have on a shopping list? Before you actually have to write it down? For me, it’s three, if I have to go to the grocery store and get more than three things, I have to write it down, or I’ll forget something. Our brains just aren’t wired for lists. So structure helps. The other thing we have to do to help is we have to focus our messages. I believe the most precious commodity we have in the world today is attention. One of the reasons people don’t comprehend remember act on our messages is they’re being bombarded with so many. So we have to focus our messages to make them clear and concise, so our audience understands it. So we need to make sure that we package them up through structure, but also make them incredibly relevant. And goals focused. If they’re focused on a goal and relevant to our audience, they’re more likely to understand and comprehend what we’re saying. And the final thing we have to think about is whenever we speak, we suffer from the curse of knowledge and the curse of passion. We know a lot about what we’re speaking on. And we’re really passionate about it. We need to make sure that we translate our messages so our audience understand it. We often will use jargon and acronyms and terminology that our audiences don’t necessarily understand. So we have to translate it so that they can really appreciate it. So it’s about structure. It’s about focus, and it’s about accessibility. That’s what helps people comprehend our messages.

Stephanie Maas
Very good. Okay, so I heard this phrase last week, and I really liked it. And we are all very familiar with the term two sides of the coin. And this person that was going to explain something said to me, Hey, there are two sides to every coin. But there’s also the ring around the outside of the coin. So while it’s not perceived as a side of a coin, it is part of it. So for in listening to you, and hearing this message of communication and setting ourselves up to communicate in a way that can be comprehended. My understanding is that you have had some extensive martial arts training as well. And maybe this has been the circle around your coin.

Matt Abrahams
There are lots of circles around my coin. Thank you. Yes, I grew up in a family of people who talk all the time. So I had to learn to be louder and more focused. I grew up in a family of teachers. So I’ve always been focused on that. But yes, martial arts has played a big part of my life. I’ve studied martial arts for over four decades, many different styles, I’ve taught martial arts, I still teach martial arts. So yes, it’s had a huge impact on my life. And quite frankly, I think everybody should have some physical outlet that helps them explore the issues of their lives in a different way. You know, I have chosen a very cerebral profession, where we do research we teach, we talk about we discuss, we debate, and I think it’s important to have some physical outlet where you can still deal with some of those same issues, and maybe it’s hiking, maybe it’s a musical instrument, maybe it’s doing something else with your hands. But really, for me, martial arts has been really, really important.

Stephanie Maas
So, how? I mean, thank you for saying that. But for people who don’t have a super physicality to them, they often go Yeah, I hear it’s great. Okay.

Matt Abrahams
Right. So the martial arts for me, helps me be helps me be more present oriented, you know, people see the martial arts is just physical, and you watch these things on TV, where people are just pummeling each other. And that’s maybe one tiny portion of the martial arts. But martial arts are a very spiritual, very connected very, very psychological endeavor, as is, I believe, any sport add at a certain level. And so for me, it helps me be more present oriented, it helps me when I’m practicing to just be in the moment gets me in touch with my body and my breath. When you’re working with another person. Let me tell you that feedback comes in lots of ways, but in the martial arts, it’s very direct, and sometimes quite painful, and you learn from it. So it’s helped me be present. It’s helped me Listen, and people think listening in the martial arts. You know, when you’re doing what you do in the martial arts, you have to pay acute attention, and you’re focused and listening to how somebody moves, how they breathe, what their tendencies are, these are all skills that helped me I believe, in my day to day life. It also is a space where I do it for me, and it’s a way of recharging in revitalizing myself. So I have a whole lot of benefit that comes to me personally, just like I think anybody can find in any physical endeavor.

Stephanie Maas
Very cool. Okay, tell me a little bit about the books. And then tell me a little bit about your podcast.

Matt Abrahams
Excellent. Thank you for the opportunity. So I’ve written two books, the first book is speaking up without freaking out, it really tries to help people find ways to manage anxiety. Everybody is different. When it comes to anxiety. The one thing that is true is most people feel anxiety when speaking. And so the book is really designed to present different options, tools and tactics that you can use, even though they’re 50. In the book, the hope is that three or four will work for you, not everybody responds the same way. And then the newest book, Think faster. Talk smarter is all about what we started to speak on, which is how to speak better in the moment. So the first part of the book is a methodology. It’s a methodology I developed to help our Stanford MBA students, but it applies to everybody. And then the second part of the book highlights very specific situations like we talked about feedback and small talk, but also how do you make apologies? How do you introduce yourself? How do you answer questions? So these are all very specific, spontaneous speaking situations that the book addresses. And then finally, the podcast Think fast talk smart we we’ve been on air for almost four and a half years now. We focus exclusively on communication. We’re sponsored by Stanford’s Graduate School of Business 20 minute episodes where I get to interview just amazing experts in communication. And we talk about everything from how to be persuasive, how to negotiate, negotiate, how to manage conflict, how to brand yourself and actually position yourself well, super fascinating, super fun. And I’m really excited that we’ve won lots of prestigious awards. But we were also nominated in one best dog walking podcast because we’re exactly 20 minutes. And apparently, that’s how long people walk their dogs.

Stephanie Maas
That’s awesome. What a great recognition. Anything at all we have not spoken on or talked about that you want to.

Matt Abrahams
So there’s one thing that’s important, I think, to think about and that is listening. Listening is actually a really important communication skill, but it’s actually critical for spontaneous speaking. You know, I’ve talked a lot about what we do to commute We get our messages out. But we also have to listen to understand better what is needed in the moment. We all don’t listen that well, we listen just enough to get the top level of what somebody is saying. So we need to listen deeper, we need to listen for the bottom line, not the top line, we need to listen not just to what’s said, but what’s not said how it said where it said, and that can actually influence how we respond. I’ll give you a quick example. Imagine you and I come out of a meeting and you say, Hey, Matt, how do you think that went? If I’m just listening for the top line, I say, Oh, she wants feedback. And I might start diving into here are all the things we could have done better hear the things that weren’t great. But if I would have listened more fully, I might have noticed you came out the back door, not the front door, you spoke more quietly than usual, you were looking down. All of this might clue me into the fact that you really don’t want feedback, what you really want is support because you’re not feeling that that went well. So by listening more astutely for the bottom line, I can respond better, and perhaps help our relationship rather than hurting it.

Stephanie Maas
Okay, this sounds like a preview to your next book.

Matt Abrahams
I don’t know if there’s a next book, but I definitely am spending a lot of time talking about listening and talking a lot about how to collaborate with people and manage through conflicts and challenges that happen.

Stephanie Maas
Man, thank you so much for being here. This has been incredible. I’ve taken a page and a half a note. I hope you didn’t mind. And I just really appreciated your time and willingness to share.

Matt Abrahams
This was fun. I enjoyed the conversation very much. It was lovely to chat with you. Thank you and I appreciate the opportunity.