How To Talk Good and Stuff, with Michael Chad Hoeppner – Episode 481 of The Action Catalyst Podcast

Michael Chad Hoeppner, author, professor, and the Founder and CEO of GK Training, shares the very specific background he and Adam have in common, and covers topics such as embodied cognition, the Lego trick for memorization, the 5 P’s of vocal variety, a tactical exercise for sales people, the BAD speaking advice you’ve heard 100 times, being present for the audience, the risk in using prepared materials, and the parallels between sales and acting.

About Michael:

Michael Chad Hoeppner is the Founder and CEO of GK Training, a firm dedicated to giving individuals, companies, and organizations the communication skills to reach their highest goals in work and life.

Michael has worked with some of the world’s most influential companies and leaders, across a wide range of industries, universities, and professional sectors. His corporate clients include: three of the top eight financial firms in the world, 45 of the AmLaw 100, and multinational tech, pharma, and food and beverage companies. He teaches his unique approach to communication at Columbia Business School, in both the MBA and PhD programs.

Michael assists clients in every aspect of their communication: public speaking, business development, executive presence, interpersonal agility, Q&A, speech writing, email skills, and more. His individual coaching clients include varied professionals at the peak of their industries: US Presidential candidates, deans of Ivy League business schools, three of the managing partners of the 25 largest global law firms, founders of asset management firms with $100B+ under management, field officers of international peace keeping organizations, and visionaries in various fields, including the innovator who coined the term cloud computing, the most successful venture capitalist in the US for a consecutive 5-year period, and senior board members of the Special Olympics. Michael advised US democratic presidential candidates in the 2016 and 2020 races, including his role as senior communications strategist and debate coach for the Andrew Yang 2020 Presidential campaign. He also works with political aspirants at the beginning of their careers, including pro bono work for Vote Mama, an org that supports mothers with young children seeking first-time public office.

His background in communication, training, and teaching is diverse and rich, having studied linguistics, theatre, speech, rhetoric, philosophy, and communications at the graduate and undergraduate level. His work in professional communications started two decades ago with achieving his Master of Fine Arts degree from NYU’s graduate acting program, studying with many of the preeminent vocal and performance teachers in the country. After NYU, Michael enjoyed a prolific first career as a professional actor: playing on Broadway twice, including working with stage legends like Nathan Lane; touring to 30+ US states; performing internationally, including at the 2009 European Capital of Culture; guest starring in prime-time network television; and originating roles in independent film.

His passion then evolved, shifting to launching his first and still primary entrepreneurial venture, GK Training. As head of GK, Michael developed his unique, proprietary approach to communications training over a decade plus, an approach that utilizes kinesthetic learning to unlock rapid and lasting behavioral change. In that work he has created a suite of over 40 proprietary kinesthetic drills to address stubborn communication challenges like excessive filler language, lack of eye contact, slouching, talking too fast, and more with innovative tools that activate embodied cognition and circumvent thought suppression. Now entering its second decade, GK Training has clients in 43 industries across five continents.

Michael’s work in academia at Columbia University spans disciplines. In addition to teaching in the MBA and PhD programs at the Business school, he designed the curriculum for the PhD program’s capstone communication course focused on entering the job market, as well as Executive Presence programs for the Law school. One of the GK online courses he designed is integrated into the Advanced Management Program summer curricula. His proprietary kinesthetic learning drills are featured in the curriculum of communication courses in the Management Division. He has coached over 15 members of the business school faculty. And in a bit of foreshadowing, one of his first jobs after college was copy editing for the Columbia National Arts Journalism program.

Michael’s accomplishments in written communication — though not as far-reaching as his work in the spoken word — is equally varied. It includes: stump speeches and debate openers for Presidential candidates; op-eds for celebrities and public figures (placed in publications like the Washington Post and Time Magazine); plenary sessions at NGO conferences; investor pitch decks for start-ups; and nuts-and-bolts editorial work like copy editing and proof reading for over 25 NYC-based publications when he first moved to NYC in 2000.

Beyond his primary role as founder and head of GK Training, Michael dedicates time to mission-driven organizations focused on sustainability and non-partisan approaches to solving humanity’s most dire environmental challenges, including work with WWF, the Trust for Public Land, and climate-focused accelerators like SOSV’s IndieBio and the NYU Urban Future Lab.

As a thought leader, Michael is one among the growing chorus of voices identifying the link between the physical aspects of spoken communication and broader issues of health and wellness.

Michael attended Dartmouth College and Colorado College and graduated cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa with a B.A. in History and Philosophy. Michael received his MFA from NYU.

Learn more at MichaelChadHoeppner.com and GKTraining.com.

The Action Catalyst is presented by the Southwestern Family of Companies. With each episode, the podcast features some of the nation’s top thought leaders and experts, sharing meaningful tips and advice. Learn more at TheActionCatalyst.com, subscribe below or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to leave a rating and review!

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(Transcribed using A.I. / May include errors):

Adam Outland
Welcome to The Action Catalyst. Today’s guest is Michael Chad Hoeppner, the founder and CEO of GK Training, a firm dedicated to giving individuals, companies and organizations the communication skills to reach their highest goals in work and life. He’s a coach, a professor and a curriculum designer at Columbia Business School, as well as the author of the new book, Don’t Say, Um: How to Communicate Effectively to Live a Better Life. Michael, thank you so much for making the time. I was really looking forward to this conversation for many reasons, one of which is that both my parents were opera singers.

Michael Chad Hoeppner
Yeah, I knew that. I mean, I of course, did a little research about you, and that’s the coolest thing, because you have already a shorthand vocabulary for a lot of this. And my parents similar, were both professional cellists.

Adam Outland
Wow.

Michael Chad Hoeppner
Yeah, similar kind of artistic passion, but yeah, my mom, in fact, is retiring from the Colorado Symphony Orchestra after 63 years.

Adam Outland
Wow!

Michael Chad Hoeppner
In the orchestra, yeah, my dad played more than 50 so together they have something absurd, like 115 years in the symphony, or something crazy.

Adam Outland
That’s amazing. You can tell your parents that I was temporarily dedicated to the cello until we moved to Boone, North Carolina, and my parents decided to relocate our house about a half a mile from where the bus would drop you off, uphill. And in order for me to practice, I had to slug that thing all the way. And quickly lost my inspiration.

Michael Chad Hoeppner
Time to switch to a violin, right, or the triangle.

Adam Outland
The triangle sounded like it would have been a good choice. Well, that’s amazing. So yeah, you know, I can relate a lot to what it’s like to grow up with music. And there’s part of your story I was really curious about, which is, you know, what was your initial inspiration to become on day?

Michael Chad Hoeppner
Hilariously, nothing of the kind. I come from a blended family, eight of us kids all together, and none pursued professional music. So I don’t know if it skips a generation or what that would be. But I actually was focused on, I wanted to be a paleontologist or an archeologist or a marine biologist, and that obviously is not what has come to pass. So I didn’t really get interested in, let’s call it communications of any kind, until middle school and high school, and that was when I was getting into theater a little bit. The pivot I’ll hone in on, is actually fast forwarding all the way until about oh 2010, or so, which is I was a professional actor for about 10 years, Broadway film and TV and but what I began to discover is that even more interesting than portraying characters on stage, I became totally fascinated by how people learn to do that activity. And so I started becoming really obsessed about, how can you help people be more more effective and calmer and more themselves in front of audiences? So this was a somewhat natural evolution into that. The biggest thing is that we really developed a way in which to use embodied cognition, and by that, I mean getting people to use their bodies to build habits. So, you know, like the adage of learning to ride a bicycle and you never forget, and we developed a whole suite of kinesthetic tools to help people be more effective. So they’re a little bit related to theatrical training, but not really, because I kept hiring actors to try to be coaches within our firm, and they looked at me a little bit baffled when I would teach them some of these exercises. I really discovered, as an actor, half my time on stage was slightly equivalent to torture, painful, agonizingly self conscious, hyper aware of every little thing, and relentlessly self critical. Many, many artists out there, and certainly most performing artists out there can relate to that. And what I discovered was that if I could put my focus on something very concrete, it was literally the only way I could navigate through those, those moments of like, really painful self consciousness. What I discovered was that, or that I thought about it, the worse I felt, and the more I obsessed about my feelings and my pain and things like this, the worse I actually felt. And what I discovered was that simply doing, putting the focus on doing and doing behaviors, and just putting one foot in front of the other actually led to much greater healing and greater escape, deliverance, all those sorts of words. For many people, public speaking is equivalent to agony. If you give them very concrete things that they can do and succeed at, they can get past this agonizing moment and experience a little, tiny, brief moment of victory. And from that moment of victory, you can build and build and build, and pretty soon they’ve established a completely different kind of muscle memory that can help them succeed. One of the first profound experiences I had individually coaching someone is when I dreamt up this Lego block idea because he was having a really difficult time memorizing anything. And so. What I was trying to get him to do was to give himself just a moment longer before all the terrible self critical, berating voices came alive in his brain. And so I had him share one idea at a time and stack a Lego block at the end of each idea. It gave him something to do. Rather than you’re terrible, you can’t memorize anything. What a terrible communicator you are. He had a distraction, something he had to do, and then in that moment, this total miracle happened, which his brain had a moment to think and actually recall the information he was trying to remember. So it was this really powerful moment of kinesthetic learning. From there, I just developed these exercises working with with real life communicators, both very high stakes communication situations, like presidential candidates for debate prep, but also people much more, you know, Junior, which would be like high school students trying to get better at speaking so they can give a good oral report.

Adam Outland
Yeah, quite, quite a wide range. I remember the first time I encountered a challenge speaking. If I wasn’t in a good head space, I, like, my vocal cords would, like, constrict or something, and I’d have to, like, clear my voice, like, seven times. Super annoying.

Michael Chad Hoeppner
Yes. So blushing, you know, turning beet red, dry mouth. There’s a whole bunch of things that people experience that are these physical manifestations of feeling tremendously nervous.

Adam Outland
And so, your process is often to try and work through the I don’t you call it psychosomatic part, but the emotional response, the nerves before diving into maybe more of a tactical approach?

Michael Chad Hoeppner
Yeah, you use the tactics to unlock what I call a virtuous cycle of good communication. So you essentially fix the problem with these kinesthetic tools. They use embodied cognition. They change the pattern dramatically. And then once the pattern is changed, what also tends to change is all those automatic responses that are happening when the pattern is not going well. So there was a person I worked with one time, who would always blush very, very intensely, and I mean, instantly, she would start public speaking, and instantly turn beat red, and she felt terrible about this, and very self conscious. And so the first thing she said to me is, I have to stop turning red. And I said back to her, that’s not true. You have to stop moving your feet. She looked at me rather blankly, and what was going on was that she would begin speaking, and totally different than how she would stand or use her body, if she was talking to a friend at the proverbial water cooler, she would begin to relentlessly shift her weight back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, almost like miniature pacing, but very rapid, rapid pacing. At the same time, she’d be turning beet red, and she’d be trying to hide this by continually smoothing back her hair over her face, trying to almost camouflage this activity with this motion of her hands over and over again. So I actually crouched down, and I gave her feet some physical feedback to find stillness that tapped on the top of her feet, put some books on top of her feet to keep them anchored to the ground. And when she did that, all of a sudden, magically, she actually took a breath in. Her diaphragm dropped down. Her lungs filled with air, and her entire communication instrument became still. And all of a sudden, she spoke more slowly. For a moment, she breathed in. She got a better idea. She realized she actually has something to say to start the speech off, and she didn’t blush.

Adam Outland
Sometimes you have to act your way into proper thinking, instead of trying to think your way into proper acting, right?

Michael Chad Hoeppner
100%. If I could, if 1,000% was a thing, I would say 1,000% but 100% Yes, precisely. Actors know this as Inside Out versus outside in approaching of a character. You can see this in other aspects of life too. I mean, anyone who has become aware of some of the sort of approaches or focuses for health and wellness and mental health, you hear people talk about saying out loud each morning some gratitudes or doing these physical things that are reminding you of some of the mindsets that you want to keep. And yes, absolutely. I mean, if you want to go religious for a second, think of all the religious traditions in the world and how very often, if there’s a level of devotion that is trying to be unlocked, they actually do physical rituals, sometimes even regimens. And yes, these ways of acting, and if you want to use sort of philosophical language, acting virtuous can unlock positive feelings too.

Adam Outland
So almost an anchoring and through your physical actions. One of the things I just… not to do a perfect segue here, this will just kind of take us a different road. But I have to ask for our listeners, the five Ps of vocal variety. I’d love to hear what the five Ps of vocal variety are, because I’ve learned how important vocal variety is.

Michael Chad Hoeppner
Yeah, the first thing I should say is I did not invent vocal variety. Humans use vocal variety. We’ve been using it as long as. We’re human, and there’s some really important reasons why we use it, which we can get into but let’s cut to your question, which is these five Ps and those five Ps are pace, pitch, pause, power and placement. Probably the first four are instantly familiar. Let’s go through them quickly. Pace is speed, so that’s fast and slow. Pitch is the note on a musical clef, high or low. So high or low, pause is exactly what it sounds like, silence, and maybe even varied lengths of silence. Power is just another word for volume, so that’s loud and soft, and then placement is probably the only one that’s not instantly familiar. Placement means where is the sound placed in your body. A big misconception that people have about speaking is that it’s a totally cognitive activity, like if I think of smart words, I will say smart words, but it’s actually a physical activity. It takes 100 muscles to do what you and I are doing right now. It’s a physical activity. I mean, even just the act of enunciation, if you think for a moment, even just saying the word enunciation, how deeply physical that is, that final p of placement, just to be very clear, because sometimes people get a little confused about this. That means where the sound is placed in your body. So the The easiest example to think about is, if you have a friend with a really nasal voice, what’s happening technically, is the sound is only amplifying in like the nasal passages in the nasal area of the face. So that’s if P placement, and we use these 5p of vocal variety to do a whole bunch of really important purposes, like convey meaning, convey emotion, create surprise, and more and but those are the five P’s.

Adam Outland
It’s amazing. And as you keep going, I just, you know, I do actually a lot of interpretation of these lessons with my kids, because it’s so relevant right now. Yeah. And you know, your voice and communication is like the one of the most essential things that I want to make sure they they can do, because it’s so critical to human relations. So anyway, I love all of this training as a parent just as much as a professional.

Michael Chad Hoeppner
Yeah, let’s talk about kids for a second. So we are actually in the midst of a real crucible moment in which how our kids learn to speak is a little bit under threat because they spend so much time looking at these devices right here. And for those of you who are just listening, of course, I’m holding on my cell phone and because they’re not actually kind of learning interpersonal behavior and interpersonal dynamic in the same three dimensional, 24/7, kind of way that previous generations did. It’s fraught. It’s in a little bit of danger right now, and I applaud you for taking your one and a half year old’s development seriously, because it matters, and we take these skills for granted. We should not.

Adam Outland
Hmm. I don’t know how much international work you do, but do you find change based on the geography someone’s grown up in, like a German person who’s working on public speaking, versus someone who’s French or Korean? How that impacts those five Ps?

Michael Chad Hoeppner
Yeah, for sure. So to answer the question, yes, I’ve worked with folks on most of the continents of the globe and all kinds of different walks of life. I for many years when I lived in New York City, I taught at Columbia Business School in the PhD program. And a lot of the folks who get their PhDs at Columbia speak English as a second or third or fourth language. I coach in the startup world a lot, and a lot of the founders who are building companies in the US speak English as a second or third or fourth language, and oftentimes hail from somewhere else. And there’s two ways I would suggest we think about this. On the one hand, there are the core things that humans do, and we do them all over the world, and that’s partly because we are communication instruments. Communication is not a side card of being human. We built this incredible system of spoken language to be able to team up and gain an evolutionary advantage over somebody else or some other creatures, or stop the marauding, you know, cave bears or whatever it is. So this is just part of being human. But then on top of that core, there is endless complexity with how different languages work. So yes, there are these these changes and these differences all over the place. And then oftentimes, what you’re trying to do, though, no matter what culture, is not unlock how an American would speak, or how a German would speak, or how a Brit would speak, but you’re trying to unlock how that person would speak, but crucially, when they are not thinking about themselves and how they speak, but thinking about the person they’re trying to reach, and all of what we think of as the behaviors of presence or the behaviors of confidence, that means enunciation and eye contact and gestures and all the rest these come out flawlessly when we’re in that. Activity of really, truly trying to reach the other person. So no matter the culture that I’m working in, that’s what I’m trying to help people unlock.

Adam Outland
So important. What do you see as the bigger challenges as it relates to vocal, not just vocal variety, but speaking in general, for salespeople? What are some of the common concepts you end up leaning into the most with people who are in that profession?

Michael Chad Hoeppner
I’m going to offer a tactical suggestion first, because it’s so useful and so relevant to selling, and you can do it today and make your life better right away. I teach an exercise in a skill called linguistic Well, actually, sorry, the exercise is called finger walking. The skill is called linguistic precision, which means, essentially, are you choosing words, or are words just choosing you? So the exercise is simply when you’re practicing asking questions and getting better at doing that, you walk your fingers across a table or desk, choosing each and every single word that comes out of your mouth. The finger steps are the equivalent of the act of choosing words. So in a sense, you’re walking your ideas across the table. Now that’s the skill, but the way to apply it, if you’re in a selling situation, is to practice asking single questions with linguistic precision. There’s no filler, no non fluencies, and then at the end of the question, draw and an imaginary question mark in silence. Now this is really powerful for people in a sales role, because what you’ll see is that oftentimes they’re great at chit chat, they’re great at rapport building, they’re really good at asking questions to learn more about the person. And then they get to the crucial moment of asking for a next meeting or asking for the business, and their communication falls apart, and they ask like, nine questions in a row, and they talk really quickly and a bunch of samples, and they go down, they back up, they don’t let it and all of it crumbles. And so you’re practicing this very singular skill of asking one question with linguistic precision and then tolerating relaxed silence at the end, so that you build the muscle of saying something like, how would you like to move this forward? When would you like to meet again? Is there anyone else that we should loop into this conversation? And these kind of, what we call, you know, closing questions, and very often, sales folks will have a moment or two within interactions that feel really fraught for them. And if they can build that skill single questions with linguistic precision and relax silence at the end. It really helps them.

Adam Outland
That’s great. That’s a great technician way to look and reverse engineer successful communication. You have this engineer mind about you that’s allowed you to extrapolate the tools to make someone a good speaker.

Michael Chad Hoeppner
Yeah. You ask really insightful questions. I don’t actually relate to having much of an engineer’s mind, I think I have much creative artists mind, or even an inventor’s mind. Creativity is the thing that I’m pretty much addicted to. What I would say is that the engineering concept is right in a certain way, which is I became frustrated with how stymied people were by really bad advice. And I don’t mean to say bad advice, like they’re being sabotaged by people, but bad advice sounds like this. Just be yourself. Just be conversational, Just be natural. These sorts of things are intended to relax the the person you’re talking to, but they don’t, because all they do is make the person think more about themselves. And they’re not relaxed. They don’t feel like themselves. They don’t feel conversational. They feel perhaps rocked with self consciousness, as I became interested, like, how can you get in there when someone has been really messed up, and engineer them for greater success? By setting up their physical and their vocal communication instrument for success. I helped set them up for success, but it’s them who’s doing it when they have like an engineer, set themselves up, set their physical and vocal communication instruments up for success. All of a sudden, their brain is dazzling, and it does what it’s incredibly good at, which is thinking about ideas now that it’s not totally jammed up with anxiety and and multitasking of Don’t be nervous. Don’t look like an idiot. Don’t look like a fraud. Don’t mess up. Don’t all of a sudden, brilliant things come out of their mouth. And if we think of part of speaking as this act of being present and being focused on the other person, you can’t be present if you are thinking about all the stuff you forgot, or anxious about all the stuff you’re about to forget. So very often, written materials, although intended to be a support, very often, they cannot be that helpful, because it puts you in the past or the future endlessly. And the act of speaking is a physical one. You’re not going to be giving someone a PDF with a bunch of bullets on it. You are turning air into sound and then sound into words. You’re doing it real time, and it’s being received real time. So anything you can do to help yourself be in the present, as opposed to, you know, those two other time zones that are not that helpful can be powerful. Because here’s the funny thing, I’ve actually helped many people experience that, that wow, I’m better when I’m not quite so anchored to my notes. The hard part is getting them to have the trust and faith to actually try and test it without it, and kind of get their sea legs with that, because it it takes some bravery of letting go.

Adam Outland
Yeah, I love that. And I, you know, I’d have to include this question, because I think of sales and acting and how they’re similar in so many ways. In sales, I’m very clear you have a sales script, there’s a purpose in remembering it, because the words do matter to an extent, but not so much to the extent that it affects the emotion of the conversation in acting. This is the part in the world, I don’t know, and so I would love your thoughts. I don’t know how often the directors so hard on getting the exact words where you have to get caught up in the words, or if you don’t rehearse enough to know all the paragraphs of information, it creates that trauma cycle of, am I, you know, saying the right line, or if you’re allowed to be emotionally engaged, how does that? How does that work in acting, and what’s your take on scripts versus no scripts in communication?

Michael Chad Hoeppner
So you have to promise to interrupt me a lot in this next answer, okay, because that’s a big, juicy question, and we could do a whole separate podcast based on that question. Okay, it depends on the version of stage performance improv, there’s no script. There may be a couple like pretenses or a couple starting points, but then there’s no script at all. That’s part of the delight. Sort of like watching jazz musicians improvise, you get to watch people impromptu come up with these hilarious and amazing and heartfelt real time scripts. It’s totally astonishing. On the other side, you’ve got classical texts, Shakespeare, Chekhov, things like that, where oftentimes the script is so well known that if you really had a line club, some of the audience might Hey, he forgot that word in general, stage acting is required to be a bit more precise than film acting in a couple different ways. So film acting, as long as you’re not having to do a bunch of takes in which lines are are piggybacking 100% on each other, then you may have some freedom, and the director may want to take just the best take. So an example of this is, if you’re watching serial drama, law and order, those sorts of things, there’s quite a bit of latitude with the script. Other times, there’s not, and it also depends on the playwright or the screenwriter. So there really is some nuance there. But the place I want to do a tiny, deep dive, though, is actually about this idea of scripting stage actors. What they’re striving for is the exact opposite, that it’s not a activity of trying to remember and a burden of mental memory, but rather that the process of learning this language actually informs them, and so these words become irreplaceable. These words actually teach them who the character is. And if they really get behind the words. They actually teach them what the action often is. I mean, as an example, here’s a piece of poetry I question things and do not find one that will answer to my mind and all the world appears unkind. Now, if you listen to that, a bunch of those words have final voiced consonants. Question things do not find one that will answer to my mind, final voice consonants just mean consonants that have vocal tone, de ne, those sorts of things. So if you really get behind that language, it begins to activate a sense of onomatopoeia, which is the word sounds like the thing that it is. And all those final voice consonants that can be drawn out actually give you some indication of what the character is doing, which is essentially searching and trying to squeeze every possible answer, because their answer list, they cannot find the thing they’re looking for. So I don’t mean to get too you know, dramatic or artsy with this whole thing, but actors often rely on the words. It’s not trying to master them all, and it’s a burden. No, those words are their tool, their superpower, in many ways. Now, what the heck does that have to do with public speaking? The same thing, which is, if you have a script, first of all, do you have to learn a script? Learn it physically and learn it with variety. Don’t rehearse the same way. Every time, don’t rehearse the same way. Every time, don’t rehearse the same way. Every time don’t rehearse the same way. Every time you’re memorizing vocal variety, you’re not memorizing the ideas. So move around in space, walk like an elephant, slowly, big, swinging arms through the room, saying the words and the next time, whisper it into your phone like you’re at a library, trying not to get scolded by the librarian. So you’re learning the ideas, but you’re not memorizing vocal. Variety also get to know the ideas in what you’re sharing, not just the words in the page. In fact, I often suggest that people write out their scripts like a poem. Make it look how the ideas make sense, not just how the word processor has divvied it up on the page. That has nothing to do with the ideas and the lines. It just has to do with how many characters fit on a line of text. It’s a big topic. It’s a worthwhile question you ask. But I also don’t want to give you a whole soap opera on this one question.

Adam Outland
No. I mean, it was great, and you’ve, you’ve split up the little pieces of nuggets of wisdom really well. Michael, I hate to even in this interview, because I feel like we’re just scratching the surface. There’s like another three hours in us. Where can everybody go to learn more about your work?

Michael Chad Hoeppner
Sure, three simple places for the book. It’s just DontSayUm.com just the title of the book .com. Don’t say um.com, my company’s name is GK training, and that’s the same URL. G K training.com and then you can find me on LinkedIn. Michael Chad Hoeppner.

Adam Outland
Wonderful. Well, I will be looking at your resources for sure, and I’m sure a lot of our listeners will be as well. Thank you so much for joining us.

Michael Chad Hoeppner
Thank you for the interview, and thank you for the really interesting questions. I know that can also sound like lip service, like every guest is like, what a great question. You’re so smart. But really fun to get to answer.